All these lists are just bad version of Rakdos aggro... even if we get a turn 2 HS you don't have any better chances of winning and are slowed down a turn. I think we should use heartless summoning as a "combo piece" rather than just a ooo my creatures just got weaker SWEET!... wtf. I'll post my list soon.
A bad version of Rakdos Aggro is anything expect B/r Zombies seriously if you are in Black Aggro the Zombie Shell is the way to go no other reason to do it any other way.
This deck still stands on its own without Heartless using Nighthawk as our 3 drop, then Turn 4 Desecration Demon is a way to control the board nicely. We arent just playing the biggest creatures possible just so we can make the cheap. This deck can survive without Heartless its not as much fun as a Turn 3 demon or a turn 3 Hellkite but the deck still does work.
I've been playtesting a lot today and the list is very solid. Turn 3 nighthawl without heartless is a very strong and then yiu can curve right into Desecration demon.
Anyone tried Jund or 4c yet? You can build a ramp deck with pretty high odds of landing a HS or Farseek t2. Early Thragtusk or machinegunning with Olivia/Niv seems pretty good. Honestly, having played HS before, I don't think timmy Rakdos beaters is the way to go.
The problem is what to cut for the green split. I'm not sure if Farseek and Thragtusk justifies the mana scramble onto Jund. Plus, what to take out for it? Searing Spear?
I think the way it stands, it's pretty solid, though I'd love to see a Jund list based on this.
Quote from sonofstev »
Been playtesting the version on page 1. It's extraordinarily fun, but tends to crap out if Heartless isn't on the board.
Desecration Demon is far better than it seems, especially on T3.
There's a better list at page 3. And yeah, early Demon ROCKS, it will shut up so many haters when they are at the receiving end. It's even better than a T3 Bloodgift imo.
Im not a huge fan of Falkenrath Noble so far and I am a giant fan of Vampire Nighthawk. If we dont get Heartless online on Turn 2 Nighthawk comes down Turn 3 and helps us by either killing their big drop or protecting us alittle and gaining some some life and letting us stablize. Ive play tested against Jund Zombies and it seems to be doing pretty well without sideboarding the key is keeping early mana to slip or giestflame Lotleth Troll who is super strong if you give him the chance to do anything. Also stealing their own Aristocrat with Olivia is awesome
Has anyone tried Somberwald Sage? For me, she's just gamewinning a not-insignificant portion of the time when you dont draw heartless and they don't kill her, and when you do have heartless she turns on tragic slip for 1 mana. My version also runs Harvester of Souls to take advantage of the interaction.
Has anyone tried Somberwald Sage? For me, she's just gamewinning a not-insignificant portion of the time when you dont draw heartless and they don't kill her, and when you do have heartless she turns on tragic slip for 1 mana. My version also runs Harvester of Souls to take advantage of the interaction.
That makes a Jund splash necessary. Plus, she's way too fragile (and a dead card when HS hits).
I really liked Harvester of Souls. Tried him on main deck, then side, then took it out. The reason is that he's way too expensive to not have an immediate board impact. Bloodgift Demon is more straight-forward, has evasion and can serve to ping opponents if needed.
One of the ways to make a HS deck less dependable on it is to keep mana costs low. That's why the highest cmc is 5, and all extra mana can be used into Olivia or Geistflame's flashback.
Thoughts on Chemister? Becomes CMC 3, Draw 2 cards is nuts, you can discard a bomb (which could also be playable with heartless) for removal as well. Makes me wanna throw in unburial rites too
Thoughts on Chemister? Becomes CMC 3, Draw 2 cards is nuts, you can discard a bomb (which could also be playable with heartless) for removal as well. Makes me wanna throw in unburial rites too
I like him but I dont think Grixis Heartless has the mana support at the moment.
That is one thing I do really love about the mana base right now is its super consistent.
Ive cut one Noble for another Nighthawk.
Searing Spear is way better then I expected Ive finished several games with it. Although I still wanna test Dreadbore maybe 2 Spears 1 Dreadbore maindeck.
I had a friend suggest Balefire Dragon but I think it is just way to costly even with Heartless up.
That is one thing I do really love about the mana base right now is its super consistent.
Ive cut one Noble for another Nighthawk.
Searing Spear is way better then I expected Ive finished several games with it. Although I still wanna test Dreadbore maybe 2 Spears 1 Dreadbore maindeck.
I had a friend suggest Balefire Dragon but I think it is just way to costly even with Heartless up.
Any testing with Rakdos, Lord of riots? He seems better in a midrange/control deck like this.
Thoughts on Chemister? Becomes CMC 3, Draw 2 cards is nuts, you can discard a bomb (which could also be playable with heartless) for removal as well. Makes me wanna throw in unburial rites too
I REALLY like that card, but for now, it is as The Gate Keeper says: we have too many double mana costs in our deck to afford a third color. Maybe that can be an useful engine depending on what we get for Dimir at Gatecrash.
I will try with 4 Nighthawks as that lessens even more the pressure on mana base while adding more control. But in the end, I think the damage gain from Aristocrat, and especially Aristocrat+Desecration combo, as well as Olivia, is way too good.
Balefire Dragon would be AMAZING if it had either First Strike or Haste. But as it is now, pretty much unplayable.
Maybe the single Dreadbore is worth checking as well. Though I must confess I just love the Searing Spears.
EDIT: Big Papa Rakdos wasn't made for this deck. Absolutely zero synergy.
use sign in blood, underworld connections, bloodgift demon, disciple of bolas, izzet charm or chemister for drawing
cavern for the demons
captain to untap chemister/demon or whatever, or tap whatever
griselbrand to auto-win
lich to abuse chemister/reuse stuff
I REALLY like that card, but for now, it is as The Gate Keeper says: we have too many double mana costs in our deck to afford a third color. Maybe that can be an useful engine depending on what we get for Dimir at Gatecrash.
I will try with 4 Nighthawks as that lessens even more the pressure on mana base while adding more control. But in the end, I think the damage gain from Aristocrat, and especially Aristocrat+Desecration combo, as well as Olivia, is way too good.
Balefire Dragon would be AMAZING if it had either First Strike or Haste. But as it is now, pretty much unplayable.
Maybe the single Dreadbore is worth checking as well. Though I must confess I just love the Searing Spears.
EDIT: Big Papa Rakdos wasn't made for this deck. Absolutely zero synergy.
Somebody said the same thing to me about desecration demon when I began testing him on workstation. Now everybody is dropping 3 to 4 copies in this deck.
The one thing I notice is that a 1/2 vampire nighthawk is never blocked on turn 4 when attacking. My opponents dread morbid triggering with the other cards I have and always take the one damage to the face.
I will do more testing over the next week and drop back. I think big Rakdos could be big with a heartless summoning control build, especially if I can consistently drop him turn 4.
Somebody said the same thing to me about desecration demon when I began testing him on workstation. Now everybody is dropping 3 to 4 copies in this deck.
I will do more testing over the next week and drop back. I think big Rakdos could be big with a heartless summoning control build, especially if I can consistently drop him turn 4.
The problem with Rakdos is, together with his complete zero synergy with HS (actually reverse synergy), is that he's way too unreliable. Every other creature in this deck is more reliable than Rakdos is, most creatures are already easy enough to cast by turn 4, with or without HS. Not to mention his zero board impact when he lands.
The problem with Rakdos is, together with his complete zero synergy with HS (actually reverse synergy), is that he's way too unreliable. Every other creature in this deck is more reliable than Rakdos is, most creatures are already easy enough to cast by turn 4, with or without HS. Not to mention his zero board impact when he lands.
I assume by reliability, you mean being able to cast BBRR on turn 4.
I assume by reliability, you mean being able to cast BBRR on turn 4.
If, and only IF, you manage to hit your opponent. The only thing in this deck that can make Rakdos in T4 is a hit from a Vampire Nighthawk played on T3, so that alone is pretty drawbacking. I'm not saying he's bad in general, but to this kind of deck, he's just trash.
If by turn 4 we dont have Heartless out and we're still stable then there is no need for him and those would be the only time we could play him anyway. He just isnt necessary.
What's your guys thoughts on Blue to make the deck into grixis?
You get Havengul lich which seems to make the deck sing. Combo'ing with Vexing devils ends the game pretty fast. Also gives you access to Sphinx of Uthuun which can block all those annoying flyers like restro angel and gives you some more threats when it enters the field.
I'm also thinking Mercurial Chemister is a good add here. It's really solid with the lich. I'm thinking of adding 2. He also works with Sphinx of Uthuun since you can discard it to kill basically any creature in the format.
Maybe even some clones would be good. Having more then one Desecration Demon on the field seems really good. Clones are also great vs all the LEG creatures that I'm sure will be showing up.
Anyone tried that new color fixing arifact? You don't have heartless all the time and the artifact gives you options to hit your high color weight cards all the time while ramping to your 5 and 7 drops.
What's your guys thoughts on Blue to make the deck into grixis?
Anyone tried that new color fixing arifact? You don't have heartless all the time and the artifact gives you options to hit your high color weight cards all the time while ramping to your 5 and 7 drops.
That's the problem: for a Heartless Summoning deck to work, we can't rely onto it. So the MAIN thing to do is to run the fewest high-cost creatures we can while still getting value out of the enchantment.
So we can't rely on big fatties like Sphinx of Uthuun, which costs seven, to do the job for us. Even if it comes with a Fact of Fiction, because as you already spent your mana for it, you will hardly be able to use any of the cards she can get for you.
We speculate it before, and we think that without the Dimir manafixing, Grixis HS will be awkward to play. Havengul Lich annoys me a lot in special, because it NEEDS the graveyard in order to be useful, and we have way too much yard hate by now. Vexing Devil is also unreliable, and bad at T1 against both aggro and ramp.
Imo, the secret to this deck is to control, and to beat down HARD. If every threat you have not only flies, but have immediate board impact, then you don't have to wait for untapping at the next turn to win.
Also, there is no need at all for ramping if the deck keeps consistent (which seems to be now), and for that to happen, we need to keep things' cost down low.
That's the problem: for a Heartless Summoning deck to work, we can't rely onto it. So the MAIN thing to do is to run the fewest high-cost creatures we can while still getting value out of the enchantment.
So we can't rely on big fatties like Sphinx of Uthuun, which costs seven, to do the job for us. Even if it comes with a Fact of Fiction, because as you already spent your mana for it, you will hardly be able to use any of the cards she can get for you.
We speculate it before, and we think that without the Dimir manafixing, Grixis HS will be awkward to play. Havengul Lich annoys me a lot in special, because it NEEDS the graveyard in order to be useful, and we have way too much yard hate by now. Vexing Devil is also unreliable, and bad at T1 against both aggro and ramp.
Imo, the secret to this deck is to control, and to beat down HARD. If every threat you have not only flies, but have immediate board impact, then you don't have to wait for untapping at the next turn to win.
Also, there is no need at all for ramping if the deck keeps consistent (which seems to be now), and for that to happen, we need to keep things' cost down low.
But don't you think keeping your creature cost low directly conflicts with the power of heartless summoning? Wouldn't a heartless summoning deck want high mana creatures in order to get the most out of heartless summoning? This is what I'm thinking is the case. I'm going to need to test either way. Man it's a pain not having the cards on tapped out.
I think for any heartless summoning deck to really work it requires basically 4 things.
1. Control elements to deal with swarm strategies
2. Cards that are good WITHOUT the enchantment
3. Creatures with very powerful ETB effects or card advantage attached
4. Creatures with CMC at 5-6 that fit #2 and #3.
The -1/-1 disadvantage is negated a lot by fulfilling the 3rd rule. The two best creatures right now that fit category #2, #3, and #4 are Thragtusk and Bloodgift Demon. They happen to curve perfectly as t3 drops with HS in play.
I should add that I disagree vehemently with anybody suggesting Desecration Demon as a card for such a deck. It creates zero card advantage, is only reduced in casting cost by 1 on average and comes down as (at best) a 5/5 on T3. It doesn't fit the criteria, basically at all. By comparison Bloodgift Demon comes down as a 4/3 flying Phyrexian Arena.
Disciple of Bolas is an interesting choice, because it has a very powerful ETB effect, but it dies immediately, essentially forcing you to sacrifice 2 creatures. Sadly, I don't think it should make the cut.
Without any other ramp such a deck shouldn't be playing very many (if any) cards with cmc > 6. The loss of Solemn Simulacrum is the biggest hit against the deck. It was another creature that fit the criteria.
Creatures that I think deserve a look include things like Borderland Ranger and Restoration Angel. They are the types of creatures that should fit around the enchantment.
I think for any heartless summoning deck to really work it requires basically 4 things.
1. Control elements to deal with swarm strategies
2. Cards that are good WITHOUT the enchantment
3. Creatures with very powerful ETB effects or card advantage attached
4. Creatures with CMC at 5-6 that fit #2 and #3.
The -1/-1 disadvantage is negated a lot by fulfilling the 3rd rule. The two best creatures right now that fit category #2, #3, and #4 are Thragtusk and Bloodgift Demon. They happen to curve perfectly as t3 drops with HS in play.
I should add that I disagree vehemently with anybody suggesting Desecration Demon as a card for such a deck. It creates zero card advantage, is only reduced in casting cost by 1 on average and comes down as (at best) a 5/5 on T3. It doesn't fit the criteria, basically at all. By comparison Bloodgift Demon comes down as a 4/3 flying Phyrexian Arena.
If you playtest Desecration Demon, you will immediatly understand his value and why he's a 4-of
If you playtest Desecration Demon, you will immediatly understand his value and why he's a 4-of
I'd love to hear an explanation of how he could possibly be more valuable than the other demon in Heartless Summoning. It does nothing to impact the board or create card advantage. Vanilla creatures are not good with Heartless Summoning. Powerful creature effects ARE though.
You could get Desecration Demon out T3 with Farseek just as easily as Heartless Summoning, and it doesn't get -1/-1.
I'd love to hear an explanation of how he could possibly be more valuable than the other demon in Heartless Summoning. It does nothing to impact the board or create card advantage. Vanilla creatures are not good with Heartless Summoning. Powerful creature effects ARE though.
You could get Desecration Demon out T3 with Farseek just as easily as Heartless Summoning, and it doesn't get -1/-1.
He's not more valuable than Bloodgift Demon, they serve different roles. Bloodgift is meant to give you card advantage, while Desecration controls. Desecration costs one less mana for an extra +1/+2 body (keeping it off Searing Spear/Mortars range) with the possibility of growing up, and keeps the opponents creatures at check. He's FAR from being a vanilla creature.
The -1/-1 he gets with HS isn't a problem at all if you consider he's being cast for BB. If you doubt me, playtest the deck the way it is. You will only understand how good Desecration Demon is while playing with/against him.
I'd love to hear an explanation of how he could possibly be more valuable than the other demon in Heartless Summoning. It does nothing to impact the board or create card advantage. Vanilla creatures are not good with Heartless Summoning. Powerful creature effects ARE though.
You could get Desecration Demon out T3 with Farseek just as easily as Heartless Summoning, and it doesn't get -1/-1.
You can only put 4 of the Bloodgift into a deck. If you could put 8, i would do that perhaps instead of desecration demon.
You can drop desecration demon on turn three for 2 mana. That leaves you one mana to lay down a tragic slip/geistflame during your opponents turn before combat. That can be huge against aggro deck's. You burn his 2/1 hasty, and then he has to decide if he want to sack his 3/2.
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A bad version of Rakdos Aggro is anything expect B/r Zombies seriously if you are in Black Aggro the Zombie Shell is the way to go no other reason to do it any other way.
This deck still stands on its own without Heartless using Nighthawk as our 3 drop, then Turn 4 Desecration Demon is a way to control the board nicely. We arent just playing the biggest creatures possible just so we can make the cheap. This deck can survive without Heartless its not as much fun as a Turn 3 demon or a turn 3 Hellkite but the deck still does work.
Desecration Demon is far better than it seems, especially on T3.
The problem is what to cut for the green split. I'm not sure if Farseek and Thragtusk justifies the mana scramble onto Jund. Plus, what to take out for it? Searing Spear?
I think the way it stands, it's pretty solid, though I'd love to see a Jund list based on this.
There's a better list at page 3. And yeah, early Demon ROCKS, it will shut up so many haters when they are at the receiving end. It's even better than a T3 Bloodgift imo.
That makes a Jund splash necessary. Plus, she's way too fragile (and a dead card when HS hits).
I really liked Harvester of Souls. Tried him on main deck, then side, then took it out. The reason is that he's way too expensive to not have an immediate board impact. Bloodgift Demon is more straight-forward, has evasion and can serve to ping opponents if needed.
One of the ways to make a HS deck less dependable on it is to keep mana costs low. That's why the highest cmc is 5, and all extra mana can be used into Olivia or Geistflame's flashback.
I like him but I dont think Grixis Heartless has the mana support at the moment.
4 Vampire Nighthawk
2 Olivia Voldaren
2 Hellrider
2 Falkenrath Noble
4 Desecration Demon
3 Bloodgift Demon
2 Zealous Conscripts
2 Thundermaw Hellkite
4 Heartless Summoning
4 Tragic Slip
4 Geistflame
3 Searing Spear
Lands
9 Swamp
7 Mountain
4 Blood Crypt
4 Dragonskull Summit
That is one thing I do really love about the mana base right now is its super consistent.
Ive cut one Noble for another Nighthawk.
Searing Spear is way better then I expected Ive finished several games with it. Although I still wanna test Dreadbore maybe 2 Spears 1 Dreadbore maindeck.
I had a friend suggest Balefire Dragon but I think it is just way to costly even with Heartless up.
Any testing with Rakdos, Lord of riots? He seems better in a midrange/control deck like this.
I REALLY like that card, but for now, it is as The Gate Keeper says: we have too many double mana costs in our deck to afford a third color. Maybe that can be an useful engine depending on what we get for Dimir at Gatecrash.
I will try with 4 Nighthawks as that lessens even more the pressure on mana base while adding more control. But in the end, I think the damage gain from Aristocrat, and especially Aristocrat+Desecration combo, as well as Olivia, is way too good.
Balefire Dragon would be AMAZING if it had either First Strike or Haste. But as it is now, pretty much unplayable.
Maybe the single Dreadbore is worth checking as well. Though I must confess I just love the Searing Spears.
EDIT: Big Papa Rakdos wasn't made for this deck. Absolutely zero synergy.
then consider a fun "draw-crazy" deck
4 Blood Crypt
4 Dragonskull Summit
4 Sulfur Falls
4 Drowned Catacombs
2 Swamp
2 Cavern of Souls
2 Underworld Connections
4 Sign In Blood
3 Dreadbore
3 Izzet Charm
4 Bloodgift Demon
3 Mercurial Chemister
3 Desecration Demon
3 Disciple of Bolas
2 Havengul Lich
2 Griselbrand
2 Captain of the Mists
1 Thundermaw Hellkite
use sign in blood, underworld connections, bloodgift demon, disciple of bolas, izzet charm or chemister for drawing
cavern for the demons
captain to untap chemister/demon or whatever, or tap whatever
griselbrand to auto-win
lich to abuse chemister/reuse stuff
Somebody said the same thing to me about desecration demon when I began testing him on workstation. Now everybody is dropping 3 to 4 copies in this deck.
The one thing I notice is that a 1/2 vampire nighthawk is never blocked on turn 4 when attacking. My opponents dread morbid triggering with the other cards I have and always take the one damage to the face.
I will do more testing over the next week and drop back. I think big Rakdos could be big with a heartless summoning control build, especially if I can consistently drop him turn 4.
The problem with Rakdos is, together with his complete zero synergy with HS (actually reverse synergy), is that he's way too unreliable. Every other creature in this deck is more reliable than Rakdos is, most creatures are already easy enough to cast by turn 4, with or without HS. Not to mention his zero board impact when he lands.
I assume by reliability, you mean being able to cast BBRR on turn 4.
If, and only IF, you manage to hit your opponent. The only thing in this deck that can make Rakdos in T4 is a hit from a Vampire Nighthawk played on T3, so that alone is pretty drawbacking. I'm not saying he's bad in general, but to this kind of deck, he's just trash.
You get Havengul lich which seems to make the deck sing. Combo'ing with Vexing devils ends the game pretty fast. Also gives you access to Sphinx of Uthuun which can block all those annoying flyers like restro angel and gives you some more threats when it enters the field.
I'm also thinking Mercurial Chemister is a good add here. It's really solid with the lich. I'm thinking of adding 2. He also works with Sphinx of Uthuun since you can discard it to kill basically any creature in the format.
Maybe even some clones would be good. Having more then one Desecration Demon on the field seems really good. Clones are also great vs all the LEG creatures that I'm sure will be showing up.
Anyone tried that new color fixing arifact? You don't have heartless all the time and the artifact gives you options to hit your high color weight cards all the time while ramping to your 5 and 7 drops.
That's the problem: for a Heartless Summoning deck to work, we can't rely onto it. So the MAIN thing to do is to run the fewest high-cost creatures we can while still getting value out of the enchantment.
So we can't rely on big fatties like Sphinx of Uthuun, which costs seven, to do the job for us. Even if it comes with a Fact of Fiction, because as you already spent your mana for it, you will hardly be able to use any of the cards she can get for you.
We speculate it before, and we think that without the Dimir manafixing, Grixis HS will be awkward to play. Havengul Lich annoys me a lot in special, because it NEEDS the graveyard in order to be useful, and we have way too much yard hate by now. Vexing Devil is also unreliable, and bad at T1 against both aggro and ramp.
Imo, the secret to this deck is to control, and to beat down HARD. If every threat you have not only flies, but have immediate board impact, then you don't have to wait for untapping at the next turn to win.
Also, there is no need at all for ramping if the deck keeps consistent (which seems to be now), and for that to happen, we need to keep things' cost down low.
But don't you think keeping your creature cost low directly conflicts with the power of heartless summoning? Wouldn't a heartless summoning deck want high mana creatures in order to get the most out of heartless summoning? This is what I'm thinking is the case. I'm going to need to test either way. Man it's a pain not having the cards on tapped out.
1. Control elements to deal with swarm strategies
2. Cards that are good WITHOUT the enchantment
3. Creatures with very powerful ETB effects or card advantage attached
4. Creatures with CMC at 5-6 that fit #2 and #3.
The -1/-1 disadvantage is negated a lot by fulfilling the 3rd rule. The two best creatures right now that fit category #2, #3, and #4 are Thragtusk and Bloodgift Demon. They happen to curve perfectly as t3 drops with HS in play.
I should add that I disagree vehemently with anybody suggesting Desecration Demon as a card for such a deck. It creates zero card advantage, is only reduced in casting cost by 1 on average and comes down as (at best) a 5/5 on T3. It doesn't fit the criteria, basically at all. By comparison Bloodgift Demon comes down as a 4/3 flying Phyrexian Arena.
Disciple of Bolas is an interesting choice, because it has a very powerful ETB effect, but it dies immediately, essentially forcing you to sacrifice 2 creatures. Sadly, I don't think it should make the cut.
Without any other ramp such a deck shouldn't be playing very many (if any) cards with cmc > 6. The loss of Solemn Simulacrum is the biggest hit against the deck. It was another creature that fit the criteria.
Creatures that I think deserve a look include things like Borderland Ranger and Restoration Angel. They are the types of creatures that should fit around the enchantment.
If you playtest Desecration Demon, you will immediatly understand his value and why he's a 4-of
I'd love to hear an explanation of how he could possibly be more valuable than the other demon in Heartless Summoning. It does nothing to impact the board or create card advantage. Vanilla creatures are not good with Heartless Summoning. Powerful creature effects ARE though.
You could get Desecration Demon out T3 with Farseek just as easily as Heartless Summoning, and it doesn't get -1/-1.
He's not more valuable than Bloodgift Demon, they serve different roles. Bloodgift is meant to give you card advantage, while Desecration controls. Desecration costs one less mana for an extra +1/+2 body (keeping it off Searing Spear/Mortars range) with the possibility of growing up, and keeps the opponents creatures at check. He's FAR from being a vanilla creature.
The -1/-1 he gets with HS isn't a problem at all if you consider he's being cast for BB. If you doubt me, playtest the deck the way it is. You will only understand how good Desecration Demon is while playing with/against him.
You can only put 4 of the Bloodgift into a deck. If you could put 8, i would do that perhaps instead of desecration demon.
You can drop desecration demon on turn three for 2 mana. That leaves you one mana to lay down a tragic slip/geistflame during your opponents turn before combat. That can be huge against aggro deck's. You burn his 2/1 hasty, and then he has to decide if he want to sack his 3/2.