I've been playing alot vs a buddy of mine (uw spirits) and he finally found a way to get around me, Jace, Memory Adept. the 0 ability vs a control deck is just devastating. Has anyone been looking at him vs mirror matches?
I've been thinking about Jace, Memory Adept a lot lately. It's one of the best ways for the blue aggro decks to beat control right now, UB just doesn't have any way to fight against a resolved planeswalker and Jace is devastating. I've been thinking about running a Jace or two in the sideboard to be used as a removal spell against the decks that might sideboard them in against me. And, it does seem like a fantastic way to beat the mirror match.
The only problem I'm having right now is finding room for it. Here's my current sideboard:
I've been thinking about cutting either the two Surgical Extraction or the two Nihil Spellbomb to make room for a couple of Jaces but I'm not sure which would be best.
You are never going to resolve a Jace in the mirror. Just throwing that out there right now. Unless you manage to bait a Leak and Extract it, you will never win a counter war tapping first. And using it as an anticipatory move against other blue decks (pretty much just delver and zombies) seems terrible, because if they don't use it, then you've wasted a slot. It's not as popular as Thrun (for example) right now, whereas I feel comfortable pre-boarding my Image in against Wolfrun, plus Jace is a much narrower answer than Image is. If they tap out for a Jace (and you can't counter it?), just tap out right back at them for your own fatty of choice (like Grave Titan, Karn etc.) and kiss Jace goodbye. You should be able to handle losing 20 cards in these matchups from a couple of +0s before your fatty can get in.
You are never going to resolve a Jace in the mirror. Just throwing that out there right now. Unless you manage to bait a Leak and Extract it, you will never win a counter war tapping first. And using it as an anticipatory move against other blue decks (pretty much just delver and zombies) seems terrible, because if they don't use it, then you've wasted a slot. It's not as popular as Thrun (for example) right now, whereas I feel comfortable pre-boarding my Image in against Wolfrun, plus Jace is a much narrower answer than Image is. If they tap out for a Jace (and you can't counter it?), just tap out right back at them for your own fatty of choice (like Grave Titan, Karn etc.) and kiss Jace goodbye. You should be able to handle losing 20 cards in these matchups from a couple of +0s before your fatty can get in.
Your argument against Jace is flawed. Very, very flawed. He cost less than a titan and is arguably more threatening.
Yes you have to tap 5 mana for him, and that leaves you @ a disadvantage in a counter war. Well, it happens. Your opponent drew more counters, and whether or not you tapped for a jace or for a titan, you would lose that war all the same. So there is no argument there.
You're also assuming Jace will be played into counter magic. Negative Ghostrider. What if they tapped out for their fatty, you won the counter war, and are untapping to their clear board?
You said if they tap for a Jace, you tap right back for a fatty, no?
If you do that in a game against me thinking your titan, a creature, will last longer than my jace, a planeswalker, I'll laugh in your face and Go for the Throat or Tragic Slip your titan, and watch you squirm as you get milled.
I will resolve a Jace against you if you have that kind of mentality. Just throwing that out there right now.
Your argument against Jace is flawed. Very, very flawed. He cost less than a titan and is arguably more threatening.
Yes you have to tap 5 mana for him, and that leaves you @ a disadvantage in a counter war. Well, it happens. Your opponent drew more counters, and whether or not you tapped for a jace or for a titan, you would lose that war all the same. So there is no argument there.
You're also assuming Jace will be played into counter magic. Negative Ghostrider. What if they tapped out for their fatty, you won the counter war, and are untapping to their clear board?
You said if they tap for a Jace, you tap right back for a fatty, no?
If you do that in a game against me thinking your titan, a creature, will last longer than my jace, a planeswalker, I'll laugh in your face and Go for the Throat or Tragic Slip your titan, and watch you squirm as you get milled.
I will resolve a Jace against you if you have that kind of mentality. Just throwing that out there right now.
You are wrong and make it look like you have no idea what you are talking about, not to mention it looks like the entire post was written from your high horse to make condescending remarks to Holy Llama.
Yes you have to tap 5 mana for him, and that leaves you @ a disadvantage in a counter war. Well, it happens. Your opponent drew more counters, and whether or not you tapped for a jace or for a titan, you would lose that war all the same. So there is no argument there.
The fact that you expect someone to actually try to resolve a titan in a control vs control matchup, specifically UB vs UB shows me you don't really know the match up at all.
You're also assuming Jace will be played into counter magic. Negative Ghostrider. What if they tapped out for their fatty, you won the counter war, and are untapping to their clear board?
Then your opponenet is really bad and you could probably win that match up with playing a single flying men.
If you do that in a game against me thinking your titan, a creature, will last longer than my jace, a planeswalker, I'll laugh in your face and Go for the Throat or Tragic Slip your titan, and watch you squirm as you get milled.
I'd probably rather not play against such a rude opponent to be honest, but anyways. You DO NOT win control match ups with creatures. If you are, either your opponent is really really bad or you are running some creature heavy variant of U/B.
I will resolve a Jace against you if you have that kind of mentality. Just throwing that out there right now.
With your lack of understanding in the mirror match up, I highly doubt your Jace(s) would do much.
Jace is a good card, can be used effictively. Just not sure which match ups to use him in but as Holy Llama said using him in the Mirror is a waste of a card.
I love how most assume that U/B control v U/B control always has to turn into a "counter war".
With surgical extractions, bloodline keepers, liliana's, and now jace in the sideboard, this MU can turn into anything but a "counter war".
There is nothing wrong with playing a tapout style of game against the mirror in my opinion if your hand / sideboard calls for it. And yes, Jace is highly highly effective in this MU playing that sort of style. Turn 3 - Lili (countered) - T4 BK countered - T5 Jace.. they wont always have the counter by then, especially if you have teh extractions to make sure.
And yes, I *do* really know the mu, and sort of agree with Eizel on his points, if not his tone in getting them across.
Jace is good in the mirror period. It is not impossible to resolve him and when you do they need instant board pressure or its GG. While the mirror is generally won off the back of Nephalia Drownyard, on the play a resolved jace, memory adept or even just a turn 2 snapcaster mage can win. mind=blown
I play 2 jace becausse i want to resolve my 2 USZ.
Occasionally, jace resolves, and i then win the game.
jace is extremely powerful in the ub v ub matchup. And the scenario comes up VERY frequently. Opponent plays a threat ala lord of lineage. i have 2 mana leaks in hand, i mana leak him, and he still has enough mana to pay for my mana leak and hold up mana leak/negate or even dissipate.
my turn. I cast jace, he dissipates/negates or something. i mana leak. resolve jace. i immediately 0 jace, next turn he almost HAS to attack jace. delaying his lord flip, and i get to 0 jace one more time. sure i need to answer his lord, but i just got 2 turns where he essentially was time walked, answering my jace. i got to mill him 20 cards, and maybe i was able to keep him around to mill for a solid 30... if you mill 20 cards and are able to untap on an empty board. you are definitely ahead in the ub mirror.
worst case scenario, i don't resolve jace, but now i can untap and usz myself for a billion.
i would still really like to hear how people handle Solar Flare i have been surprise intercourse with that for a while now what is your gameplan and what do you sideboard in and out?
Jace is good in the mirror period. It is not impossible to resolve him and when you do they need instant board pressure or its GG. While the mirror is generally won off the back of Nephalia Drownyard, on the play a resolved jace, memory adept or even just a turn 2 snapcaster mage can win. mind=blown
From my experience, Jace has been absolutely devastating in U/B control mirror matches, and has not been that hard to resolve even in a counter battle. U/B does not really have access to anything that can remove a Planeswalker (as mentioned in a earlier post), unless they are running Karn.
you over looked volition reins turn your opponents planeswalker against them.
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The fact that you expect someone to actually try to resolve a titan in a control vs control matchup, specifically UB vs UB shows me you don't really know the match up at all.
With your lack of understanding in the mirror match up, I highly doubt your Jace(s) would do much.
I find it ironic that you spout off about how people don't understand the mirror match when you make posts like this. If you have more Drownyards out than your opponent, or you have pressure on the board in some form, at some stage they will be forced to spend mana on their turn to attempt to resolve a threat. They can not sit there and do nothing while they're behind in the game.
The point of Jace, Grave Titan, Bloodline Keeper, or any other threat that you bring in is so that you have a follow up play to seal the deal when you force your opponent into this position. It's not there to slap down on turn 5 and hope it wins you the game. If your opponent can fight a counter war on their turn, lose, and then you just untap and say go, that was a complete waste of winning the war.
Please stop trying to tell people they've 'never played the mirror' and talking as if you're an expert on the game, because clearly, you're not.
no, but i see potential in it sometimes when facing down non aggro decks. such as the mirror.
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I love how most assume that U/B control v U/B control always has to turn into a "counter war".
With surgical extractions, bloodline keepers, liliana's, and now jace in the sideboard, this MU can turn into anything but a "counter war".
There is nothing wrong with playing a tapout style of game against the mirror in my opinion if your hand / sideboard calls for it. And yes, Jace is highly highly effective in this MU playing that sort of style. Turn 3 - Lili (countered) - T4 BK countered - T5 Jace.. they wont always have the counter by then, especially if you have teh extractions to make sure.
And yes, I *do* really know the mu, and sort of agree with Eizel on his points, if not his tone in getting them across.
Turn 3 Lili, T4 BK and T5 Jace is not playing U/B Control, it's some odd tempo style deck. I'll explain the match up at the end because people don't know what they are talking about.
I play 2 jace becausse i want to resolve my 2 USZ.
Occasionally, jace resolves, and i then win the game.
jace is extremely powerful in the ub v ub matchup. And the scenario comes up VERY frequently. Opponent plays a threat ala lord of lineage. i have 2 mana leaks in hand, i mana leak him, and he still has enough mana to pay for my mana leak and hold up mana leak/negate or even dissipate.
my turn. I cast jace, he dissipates/negates or something. i mana leak. resolve jace. i immediately 0 jace, next turn he almost HAS to attack jace. delaying his lord flip, and i get to 0 jace one more time. sure i need to answer his lord, but i just got 2 turns where he essentially was time walked, answering my jace. i got to mill him 20 cards, and maybe i was able to keep him around to mill for a solid 30... if you mill 20 cards and are able to untap on an empty board. you are definitely ahead in the ub mirror.
worst case scenario, i don't resolve jace, but now i can untap and usz myself for a billion.
Thank you for proving my point of it only working if playing against bad players. Without a threat there is absolutely no reason for your opponent to do that.
I find it ironic that you spout off about how people don't understand the mirror match when you make posts like this. If you have more Drownyards out than your opponent, or you have pressure on the board in some form, at some stage they will be forced to spend mana on their turn to attempt to resolve a threat. They can not sit there and do nothing while they're behind in the game.
The point of Jace, Grave Titan, Bloodline Keeper, or any other threat that you bring in is so that you have a follow up play to seal the deal when you force your opponent into this position. It's not there to slap down on turn 5 and hope it wins you the game. If your opponent can fight a counter war on their turn, lose, and then you just untap and say go, that was a complete waste of winning the war.
Now this just goes completely against what you said.
So, you force your opponent into making a play by using drownyards. Okay.
You win the counterwar as your opponent has less mana than you do. Okay
Then that is usually game by continueing to use drownyards. NOT tap out for something to give your opponent a chance to get back in the game.
Please stop trying to tell people they've 'never played the mirror' and talking as if you're an expert on the game, because clearly, you're not.
What exactly constitutes to an expert? I may not be an expert but that surely means there are very little experts in Australia. Maybe next time you're in QLD I can give you a game and teach you how to really play U/B, free of charge of course.
Then that is usually game by continueing to use drownyards. NOT tap out for something to give your opponent a chance to get back in the game.
...every card your opponent draws is another chance to get back into the game. Therefore, every turn you're passing to your opponent with the intention of milling them EOT is another chance to get back into the game. Playing Jace, Grave Titan, Bloodline Keeper, Karn etc allow you to punish your opponent and gives them less outs; they now have to deal with an additional threat on the board, as well as having a much quicker clock placed on them to draw said outs.
And why do you keep assuming that you're "tapping out" to play these threats? Even if you were, your opponent would then have to tap out on their following turn to deal with it anyway, or they just lose.
I guess I'm just playing against nothing but terrible opponents, because playing a threat seems to win me the game.
Perhaps not completely tap out but by using 4-6 mana for a threat you will be down a lot of resource in your opponents turn.
Also, every card your opponent draws is another card less to mill for win. In the mirror the most effective and less risky way to win the game is by drownyards. Playing a threat is a risky play and a better opponent will definately capitalize on that.
I guess I'm just playing against nothing but terrible opponents, because playing a threat seems to win me the game.
Not sure if this is sarcasm or not but if not, I wouldn't be suprised. I've not met many people who can play UB well. Against bad U/B players I just wait till they play something and drop a grave titan or something stupid next turn so I can end the round before 45minutes. Being bad is really punishing for U/B.
"Turn 3 Lili, T4 BK and T5 Jace is not playing U/B Control, it's some odd tempo style deck. I'll explain the match up at the end because people don't know what they are talking about."
I even read all the way to the end to hear you explain the MU, since everyone doesnt know what they are talking about, but alas, you never did.
And against the mirror, isnt the point to gain the tempo? Whether its getting the drownyard out early, casting an early lili, casting early snapcasters to just beat face, or playing a tap out style of game "if your hand and sideboard calls for it"?
I for one will never throw away a hand with darkslick shore, catacombs, lili, jace, a swamp, a BK, and a SE. And, I promise you I won't be sitting there going t2 pass, t3 pass, t4 pass, t5 pass, with that hand either, espeially on the play.
Man drownyard is a beast, you don't need a single other card in your deck to win the drownyard mirror. It's a good thing that they don't have any lands that destroy other lands, or a card that can exile said lands that might be used in the control mirror.
I mean seriously. do you really think that someone wouldn't cast a lord of lineage in a control mirror? almost everyone one of the long time successful control players would beg to differ.
personally i would love to go up against a UB player that didn't run a single sphinx, titan, lord, or otherwise. I would destroy them so fast it's not even funny.
i would still really like to hear how people handle Solar Flare i have been surprise intercourse with that for a while now what is your gameplan and what do you sideboard in and out?
Not sure if this is sarcasm or not but if not, I wouldn't be suprised. I've not met many people who can play UB well. Against bad U/B players I just wait till they play something and drop a grave titan or something stupid next turn so I can end the round before 45minutes. Being bad is really punishing for U/B.
Wait, wait... I'm not sure we're even arguing about the same thing here. What you suggested is exactly what I'm talking about; you force your opponent into that position with a threat like Drownyard, then play Grave Titan, Jace, Karn, etc which will usually seal the game. What are we arguing about?
I'm not suggesting that you should slap down a threat into all of your opponent's open mana (unless you're on a losing board and need to run the risk to get back into it), if that's what you've been trying to argue =/
I have to say that usually in the mirror, the first person to try and drop something big loses because they tap too much land to stop the follow-up. I love someone dropping something turn 6 so I can follow-up with an unblocked Karn. Unblocked Karn in the mirror = GG.
Missing land drops is also brutal.
The status of your Nephalia is also critical. If someone drops a Ghost Quarter before their opponent drops a Nepahlia, kill that GQ ASAP. Land management and timing in the mirror is huge.
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I have to say that usually in the mirror, the first person to try and drop something big loses because they tap too much land to stop the follow-up. I love someone dropping something turn 6 so I can follow-up with an unblocked Karn. Unblocked Karn in the mirror = GG.
Missing land drops is also brutal.
The status of your Nephalia is also critical. If someone drops a Ghost Quarter before their opponent drops a Nepahlia, kill that GQ ASAP. Land management and timing in the mirror is huge.
Yup, always leave enough land open for a counter after dropping a threat on the table. It goes without saying, but you should never tap out... especially in a mirror match.
Yup, always leave enough land open for a counter after dropping a threat on the table. It goes without saying, but you should never tap out... especially in a mirror match.
Can we just agree that word shouldn't be used there?
The only problem I'm having right now is finding room for it. Here's my current sideboard:
1 Nephalia Drownyard
2 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Flashfreeze
2 Negate
1 Phantasmal Image
2 Bloodline Keeper
2 Batterskull
1 Wurmcoil Engine
I've been thinking about cutting either the two Surgical Extraction or the two Nihil Spellbomb to make room for a couple of Jaces but I'm not sure which would be best.
Your argument against Jace is flawed. Very, very flawed. He cost less than a titan and is arguably more threatening.
Yes you have to tap 5 mana for him, and that leaves you @ a disadvantage in a counter war. Well, it happens. Your opponent drew more counters, and whether or not you tapped for a jace or for a titan, you would lose that war all the same. So there is no argument there.
You're also assuming Jace will be played into counter magic. Negative Ghostrider. What if they tapped out for their fatty, you won the counter war, and are untapping to their clear board?
You said if they tap for a Jace, you tap right back for a fatty, no?
If you do that in a game against me thinking your titan, a creature, will last longer than my jace, a planeswalker, I'll laugh in your face and Go for the Throat or Tragic Slip your titan, and watch you squirm as you get milled.
I will resolve a Jace against you if you have that kind of mentality. Just throwing that out there right now.
You are wrong and make it look like you have no idea what you are talking about, not to mention it looks like the entire post was written from your high horse to make condescending remarks to Holy Llama.
The fact that you expect someone to actually try to resolve a titan in a control vs control matchup, specifically UB vs UB shows me you don't really know the match up at all.
Then your opponenet is really bad and you could probably win that match up with playing a single flying men.
I'd probably rather not play against such a rude opponent to be honest, but anyways. You DO NOT win control match ups with creatures. If you are, either your opponent is really really bad or you are running some creature heavy variant of U/B.
With your lack of understanding in the mirror match up, I highly doubt your Jace(s) would do much.
Jace is a good card, can be used effictively. Just not sure which match ups to use him in but as Holy Llama said using him in the Mirror is a waste of a card.
With surgical extractions, bloodline keepers, liliana's, and now jace in the sideboard, this MU can turn into anything but a "counter war".
There is nothing wrong with playing a tapout style of game against the mirror in my opinion if your hand / sideboard calls for it. And yes, Jace is highly highly effective in this MU playing that sort of style. Turn 3 - Lili (countered) - T4 BK countered - T5 Jace.. they wont always have the counter by then, especially if you have teh extractions to make sure.
And yes, I *do* really know the mu, and sort of agree with Eizel on his points, if not his tone in getting them across.
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Occasionally, jace resolves, and i then win the game.
jace is extremely powerful in the ub v ub matchup. And the scenario comes up VERY frequently. Opponent plays a threat ala lord of lineage. i have 2 mana leaks in hand, i mana leak him, and he still has enough mana to pay for my mana leak and hold up mana leak/negate or even dissipate.
my turn. I cast jace, he dissipates/negates or something. i mana leak. resolve jace. i immediately 0 jace, next turn he almost HAS to attack jace. delaying his lord flip, and i get to 0 jace one more time. sure i need to answer his lord, but i just got 2 turns where he essentially was time walked, answering my jace. i got to mill him 20 cards, and maybe i was able to keep him around to mill for a solid 30... if you mill 20 cards and are able to untap on an empty board. you are definitely ahead in the ub mirror.
worst case scenario, i don't resolve jace, but now i can untap and usz myself for a billion.
From my experience, Jace has been absolutely devastating in U/B control mirror matches, and has not been that hard to resolve even in a counter battle. U/B does not really have access to anything that can remove a Planeswalker (as mentioned in a earlier post), unless they are running Karn.
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Do people run this in your meta?
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I find it ironic that you spout off about how people don't understand the mirror match when you make posts like this. If you have more Drownyards out than your opponent, or you have pressure on the board in some form, at some stage they will be forced to spend mana on their turn to attempt to resolve a threat. They can not sit there and do nothing while they're behind in the game.
The point of Jace, Grave Titan, Bloodline Keeper, or any other threat that you bring in is so that you have a follow up play to seal the deal when you force your opponent into this position. It's not there to slap down on turn 5 and hope it wins you the game. If your opponent can fight a counter war on their turn, lose, and then you just untap and say go, that was a complete waste of winning the war.
Please stop trying to tell people they've 'never played the mirror' and talking as if you're an expert on the game, because clearly, you're not.
no, but i see potential in it sometimes when facing down non aggro decks. such as the mirror.
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I never really gave Volition Reigns much thought until now... I might have to sideboard it, and see what it can do.
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Turn 3 Lili, T4 BK and T5 Jace is not playing U/B Control, it's some odd tempo style deck. I'll explain the match up at the end because people don't know what they are talking about.
Thank you for proving my point of it only working if playing against bad players. Without a threat there is absolutely no reason for your opponent to do that.
I agree.
Now this just goes completely against what you said.
So, you force your opponent into making a play by using drownyards. Okay.
You win the counterwar as your opponent has less mana than you do. Okay
Then that is usually game by continueing to use drownyards. NOT tap out for something to give your opponent a chance to get back in the game.
What exactly constitutes to an expert? I may not be an expert but that surely means there are very little experts in Australia. Maybe next time you're in QLD I can give you a game and teach you how to really play U/B, free of charge of course.
...every card your opponent draws is another chance to get back into the game. Therefore, every turn you're passing to your opponent with the intention of milling them EOT is another chance to get back into the game. Playing Jace, Grave Titan, Bloodline Keeper, Karn etc allow you to punish your opponent and gives them less outs; they now have to deal with an additional threat on the board, as well as having a much quicker clock placed on them to draw said outs.
And why do you keep assuming that you're "tapping out" to play these threats? Even if you were, your opponent would then have to tap out on their following turn to deal with it anyway, or they just lose.
I guess I'm just playing against nothing but terrible opponents, because playing a threat seems to win me the game.
Also, every card your opponent draws is another card less to mill for win. In the mirror the most effective and less risky way to win the game is by drownyards. Playing a threat is a risky play and a better opponent will definately capitalize on that.
Not sure if this is sarcasm or not but if not, I wouldn't be suprised. I've not met many people who can play UB well. Against bad U/B players I just wait till they play something and drop a grave titan or something stupid next turn so I can end the round before 45minutes. Being bad is really punishing for U/B.
I even read all the way to the end to hear you explain the MU, since everyone doesnt know what they are talking about, but alas, you never did.
And against the mirror, isnt the point to gain the tempo? Whether its getting the drownyard out early, casting an early lili, casting early snapcasters to just beat face, or playing a tap out style of game "if your hand and sideboard calls for it"?
I for one will never throw away a hand with darkslick shore, catacombs, lili, jace, a swamp, a BK, and a SE. And, I promise you I won't be sitting there going t2 pass, t3 pass, t4 pass, t5 pass, with that hand either, espeially on the play.
I mean seriously. do you really think that someone wouldn't cast a lord of lineage in a control mirror? almost everyone one of the long time successful control players would beg to differ.
personally i would love to go up against a UB player that didn't run a single sphinx, titan, lord, or otherwise. I would destroy them so fast it's not even funny.
Wait, wait... I'm not sure we're even arguing about the same thing here. What you suggested is exactly what I'm talking about; you force your opponent into that position with a threat like Drownyard, then play Grave Titan, Jace, Karn, etc which will usually seal the game. What are we arguing about?
I'm not suggesting that you should slap down a threat into all of your opponent's open mana (unless you're on a losing board and need to run the risk to get back into it), if that's what you've been trying to argue =/
Missing land drops is also brutal.
The status of your Nephalia is also critical. If someone drops a Ghost Quarter before their opponent drops a Nepahlia, kill that GQ ASAP. Land management and timing in the mirror is huge.
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Yup, always leave enough land open for a counter after dropping a threat on the table. It goes without saying, but you should never tap out... especially in a mirror match.
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Can we just agree that word shouldn't be used there?
Sure
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