all you need on the field in terms of Vatmothers is one, two if you feel you can win.
The reason to run 4 is because the Vatmother will be target of alot of removal, so having more as backup helps alot, and with plague Myr it is very easy to reach 4 mana.
In terms of Monument and Knight Exemplar, it is why i run Black Sun's Zenith main and Consume the Meek Sideboard, and Knight Exemplar does not protect itsself from Doom blade
I like the list. A lot. I like the interaction Phyrexian Crusader has with red board sweeping (i.e. 'Doesn't Die'). Is the Mimic Vat worth it in your deck? I've always found it to be a bit of an underwhelming card. I think I might move it to the side in favor of Contagion Clasp, and possibly finding room for Everflowing Chalice.
This is the deck I played yesterday. In the sideboard the only thing set in stone is the memoricides. The duresses would be the first thing to go.
Slagstom is that 1 turn slower than pyroclasm, and the double red at turn 3 is not reliable enough for the deck i feel... dealing with equipment is not a problem as i mentioned, with jace however every bit helps
Check out my signature for a similar list. I've been testing that one for awhile now and I feel like I'm at a good mix. The pyroclasm vs. slagstorm is never ever an issue with me. I have never ever wished I had a turn two pyroclasm in my hand, I usually have either an inquisition or go for the throat or a lightning bolt or all three in my hand, and that usually is enough at the beginning of the game for any match except an extremely bad kuldotha god-hand match. And then once my slagstorm goes off I have control of the board again. So...I'm with you on the duress's I have the 4:1 ratio of IoK and duress, with a 2:2 split of ratchet bombs and tumble magnets. I don't usually see both of those cards during a game but if one shows up I can always find a use for them. If anything, I want to cut out spot removal for more magnets + planeswalker killers. I guess the bolts are great for walkers except for houses like gideon...I don't run the hexmages because frankly like the guy before me said, I have lavaclaw reaches, inkmoths, bolts, slagstorms, magnets, and ratchet bombs to deal with most walkers, and spot removal for a creature-gideon. I like your list and the only thing I would suggest as a necessity would be to up your Sign in Blood to 4. I only ever get beat when my opponent has some nasty CA going on, or an unanswerable bomb like a tutoring liliana vess on the board with a grave titan to block and win for her. Anyway, that's off on a tangent so let the reply commence!
Edit: I like how we are discussing a B/R Infect list on a MBI thread. Oops! =)
Not sure if it is still lacking or not, hopefully I get the cards I need to play this by Friday to see how it works. I like it more than my previous build perhaps just because it is different from most other infect decks, but I'm not sure if it is any better yet.
Not sure if it is still lacking or not, hopefully I get the cards I need to play this by Friday to see how it works. I like it more than my previous build perhaps just because it is different from most other infect decks, but I'm not sure if it is any better yet.
I like where are you going with this, but I think when you drop your creatures to ten, there are many times when you will have an adventuring gear or two on the board with nothing to put it on. I would drop the gear altogether, drop to 3 vatmothers, and add 4 necropede for early poison, and add another tumble magnet or contagion clasp.
I'm also not a fan of ramp in MBC Infect, but if you must, use plague myrs instead of everflowing chalice. You don't need to ramp to more than 6, so I can't see proliferating the chalice or casting it on turn 4 to happen very often. I see lots of others using it, so maybe they are on to something, but I wouldn't run it. Or..if you added necropede's instead of the gear, now you have more creatures. Maybe run a few adventuring gear instead of the chalice? I still think you need closer to twenty creatures to justify using equipment. So if it's tier 1 you are trying to beat, but hexmage in for chalice.
I like where are you going with this, but I think when you drop your creatures to ten, there are many times when you will have an adventuring gear or two on the board with nothing to put it on. I would drop the gear altogether, drop to 3 vatmothers, and add 4 necropede for early poison, and add another tumble magnet or contagion clasp.
I'm also not a fan of ramp in MBC Infect, but if you must, use plague myrs instead of everflowing chalice. You don't need to ramp to more than 6, so I can't see proliferating the chalice or casting it on turn 4 to happen very often. I see lots of others using it, so maybe they are on to something, but I wouldn't run it. Or..if you added necropede's instead of the gear, now you have more creatures. Maybe run a few adventuring gear instead of the chalice? I still think you need closer to twenty creatures to justify using equipment. So if it's tier 1 you are trying to beat, but hexmage in for chalice.
I do not want to get rid of the Adventuring Gear as I welcome having two or three out. It provides a way to win 4th turn in this deck and gives it some much needed speed (T1&T2: Drop 2 Adventuring Gear, T3: Drop Phyrexian Crusader, T4: Equip both and drop a fetch land, swing for 10 infect.) As well as provide a way to make Inkmoth Nexus more effective since you can be swinging for 5 on turn three with that.
I have noticed a lack of creatures being somewhat detrimental but there seems to be plenty of control to deal with most decks, except perhaps Kuldotha red, which the SB has plenty of answers to.
I believe I'm going to keep the decklist the same for now, and perhaps after more playtesting I might drop the Everflowing Chalice for 2x Contagion Clasp and 1x Tumble Magnet if I find them ineffective.
I'm sort of wondering about Virulent Wound. I think it has a lot of potential to be pretty powerful. Besides the obvious of being an instant removal of a 1/1 that also gives your opponent a poison counter, it can also be used as a finisher with a free poison for 1 mana.
It may be the case that other cards are better, but I feel like this has a lot of practical applications that nobody is using. If you use it smart, it's a free poison counter and creature removal for 1 mana. You can even say use it on a creature before attacking to deter a block, then Doom Blade and still get both the removal and the added counter on top of your creatures. Where's the love?
I tested the list I posted above pretty extensively. Not having Skittles hurts, since my biggest weakness was board wipe (and Caw-Go runs a lot of it). Having a creature with regeneration would have made things so much better. I'm not thinking about using Blight Mamba, but I think I definately need to get a hold of 2 of Skittles. Other than that, all I can say is Tumble Magnet is AMAZING, Swords are overkill and removal could be used over them, and that Inkmoth Nexus is the coolest manland in standard.
Honestly, Whispersilk Cloak seems better than the Swords. Most decks still have ways to block a Sworded infecter, whereas Cloak will ensure the damage always goes through.
I think 3-4 Tumble Magnet is probably required for most of what's out there right now. You can proliferate your own magnets and keep the board locked down while you find your Skittles and Vatmothers.
i like mind sludge in this deck cuz you can ramp it to turn 4 with plague myr, but as far as what the deck gains by staying mono black, the tempo is much better, since you never get stuck with UB taplands slowing you down. When you have to race a deck, like knights for example, getting slowed even one turn can cost you the game
so consistency is a significant gain
but playing U makes the deck much better imo, much more answer potential and distortion strike, cmon
@dark_myth44
I prefer it to be mono-black since it provides nice consistency as well as having answers to just about all threats.
I've also revised the prior decklist I posted, mainly because I found that Everflowing Chalice didn't help that much and I found myself wanting to draw either a Contagion Clasp or Tumble Magnet much more so than a chalice. I also think that a Contagion Engine might help in case the game goes on too long, and the double proliferation is pretty awesome.
The main problem I run into is planeswalkers and enchantments. I can often get rid of any threats via discard, but there's not much I can do when they get out. Luminarch Ascension is ridiculous against infect. I feel like Necropede is helpful against aggro decks, but I feel Vampire Hexmage may be better, especially since she can still defend and not die. So I changed that in the sideboard as well as adding one more Ratchet Bomb which works quite nicely with proliferation.
I think i'm not missing anything, i wrote it down by memory, i went at FNM with a similiar list, tweeked it a bit a few minutes ago, with my old list did 2-0 (Mono white, didn't get a chance to see what he wus playing); 2-1(BUG Titan ramp); 0-2 (W/U Control, owned by swords, artefact hate post SB and Gideon)
a Few things, im missing ratched, a friend is using 'em in his deck; Spread the sickness is sick, with ramp, at the turn u wanna play it u have at least 1 counter on something to proli, at worst, it's a great turn 6 response to any big guy. Virulent wound is just to great against green/kuldotha
U need a skithriyx and an equip for double strike and +1/+1 u win in about 2-3 turns of playing skithryx
The only equip available in standard that gives double strike is bad.
Anyway, you win should win in 2-3 after playing him without needing double strike.
So far this deck has been incredibly Aggressive, and won me 3 FNM's, but I'm debating on making it more controlling as opposed to Aggressive, only testing will tell.
My SB needs work, and I had skittles in here for awhile, but I found that in an Aggressive build Hands of the Praetors was much better.
but playing U makes the deck much better imo, much more answer potential and distortion strike, cmon
I disagree with this statement wholeheartedly. First, adding blue can slow down a lot of things in a deck. The best infectors all have BB in the casting cost. If you get color screwed, or etbft land screwed, you are slowed quite a bit. As an example, I will post my Mono-black deck and the game results from FNM last Friday.
Opponent: Mr. West
Deck: Kibler's U/B Infect
Total Rounds: 3
This was a deck I had hoped to face tonight. I wanted to test out the deck my friends and I built against one of the strongest Infect decks that have popped up. I was not disappointed in the least.
Game 1 - I lost the roll and kept a hand of Inkmoth Nexus, Swamp, Swamp, Sign in Blood, Necropede, and Tumble Magnet. West played an Inkmoth, and passed the turn. I drew into a Contagion Clasp, played my Nexus, and pass. He drew, played Darkslick Shores, animated Inkmoth, and hit me for 1 poison and then passed the turn. I drew into a Swamp, played the Swamp, and animated my Nexus, hit him for 1 and passed the turn. He played an Island, cast Necropede, and passed his turn. I draw into a Duress, I play a Swamp, cast my Necropede, and pass my turn. He draws, and looks at the board for a few minutes, and laughs at the mirror moves we had been playing. I laugh too, and he plays Drowned Catacombs, casts Contagion Clasp, killing both Necropedes, and then cast a Necropede, and passed turn. I drew into Necropede, cast my Clasp, killing his Necropede, and cast my own second one. I pass the turn. He draws, plays Creeping Tar Pit, and then passes his turn. I drew into Vatmother, played my Swamp, and thought about my next move. With 5 mana opened, I decided it was time to break away from the mirror. I cast duress, and he leaked it. I cast Sign in Blood, and drew into a Swamp and Mind Sludge. I passed my turn, and he drew and cast Tectonic Edge, destroyed my Nexus, and cast Phyrexian Crusader and passed turn. I draw into Duress, play my swamp, cast Duress, only to get it deprived. I took a chance I cast Mind Sludge, and he can't counter it thanks to the Duress he countered. 2 Tezzerets, and a few other little things that didn't matter. I passed, and he drew and played a land, and animated Nexus and swung, then proliferated. I drew into Doom Blade, cast Go for the Throat on his Crusader, and then cast Vatmother. I swung with Necropede, and passed the turn. He drew, played a swamp, animated Nexus, and then proliferated me to 5. I drew into Crusader, took 1 poison, cast Crusader, and swung with Necropede and Vatmother for 5, putting him at 6. He just sighed when he drew, dropped his land, animated Nexus, and found Doom Blade lying in wait. He passed his turn, I drew into Go for the Throat, took a poison, and asked if he could prevent all the poison with 1 Tar Pit. His answer was yes, and so I swung all in. He animated the Pit, and I cast Go for the Throat on it. On to Game 2.
G2 followed a stricter pattern. I sided out the Mothers for Revokers and 2 Sacraments. I ended up losing thanks to him using Vatmothers and me not getting a good first hand. I milled to 5 in the end, keeping Inkmoth, Swamp, Swamp, Duress, and Sadistic Sacrament. I ran out of steam at T5, and couldn't race him any longer. I expected the loss, however
G3 I sided in Skittles for 1 Mind Sludge. I kept a hand of Inkmoth, Duress, Swamp, Swamp, Necropede, Contagion Clasp, Sign in Blood. I played a Swamp, cast Duress, and took out his Tezzy early on, while making notes for the Deprive, Mana Leak, Plague Myr, and Vatmother in his hand. I passed, he played Creeping Tar Pit, and passed. I drew into Sadistic Sacrament, played a swamp, and cast Necropede. He drew, played Darkslick Shores, and cast Plague Myr. I drew into a swamp, played it, and cast Sign in Blood, drawing into Inkmoth and Tumble Magnet. I swung with Necropede, he did not block, and I passed. He drew, played an Island, tapped Plague Myr, cast Phyrexian Vatmother, and passed his turn. I drew into Duress, played my land, cast Duress and got rid of Deprive, and then cast Tumble Magnet. I passed my turn, and he drew, played a Drowned Catacomb, and went to swing with Vatmother. I respond by tapping it with Magnet. He passed, and I draw a Duress. I cast Duress only to have him leak it, which I was more than happy to let him do. I then played Sadistic Sacrament, removing 1 Tezzy and 2 Magnets from the game. I pass the turn. He draws, drops a land, drops a Clasp, killing my Necropede and in turn his Myr, and tried swinging with Vatmother, only to have it get tapped down again. I draw into Sign in Blood, cast it, drawing into Swamp and Skithiryx. I play the Swamp, cast my Clasp weakening his mother, and pass the turn. He draws, plays IoK, and sees the doom upon him. He attacks, gets his mother tapped down for the last time, and passes. I draw into a Tumble Magnet. I know he has 1 counter left in his deck, so I take it easy and cast Magnet. 3 more turns go by with him not getting anything but land, and he scooped after the last draw.
While we might have had turns where we did nothing, we both understood that it was patience that would win. Since he was running U/B, he could not pack as much field control as I could, nor could he use Mind Sludge, which I will admit, was one of the best cards I could ever ask for.
Now then, some might be curious as to my card choices. Let me explain.
1. No Plague Myr.
I was all for Plague Myr when I first saw the card. Mana ramp, for infect? Of course I wanted to play it, and for a while I did. But, it never made much of a difference in the end. I mean, sure, I could get Vatmother and Skithiryx out 1 turn early, but in the end, it ended up being wasted space, so I set off to find something that could deal with cards I had no answers for, like Blightsteel Colussus.
2. Only 3 Inkmoth Nexi.
The reason for this, which is quite easy to see, is the amount of cards that required BB to play. I did not want to get 2 Inkmoth Nexi and 1 Swamp in my opening hand, which happened a lot when I had 4 Inkmoths in there. In total, I have 27 cards with BB in their casting costs, which meant that I needed less Inkmoths and more Swamps.
3. Skithiryx in the SB.
Ok, hear is what will shock many Infect players. The second best infector is in the SB, and as a 2 of. The reason is quite simple: I already have enough high costing cards in the MB, and Skittles is, in my opinion, quite terrible to draw into early game. Normally when I side him in, it is against other Infect Decks, and I usually remove 1 Mind Sludge to play him.
4. So many 3-of's.
The reason I run mostly 3 of's is because it allows me to play more of what I need without running the risk of not drawing it. In fact, the only cards I want to constantly get are my 3 Infect creatures. The rest varies, and since I run 3 of everything else, I could afford to use similar cards, Like Doom Blade and Go For The Throat.
5. Grasp of Darkness over Disfigure.
Ok, hear is my beef with Disfigure, T1, it is a great draw against many aggro decks. T2, not so much. T3-T6, that -2/-2 isn't helping much. Grasp, on the other hand, allows me to kill most things that see play these days, for just BB. A great example is Skittles. A 4/4 haste Infector with Regen. Disfigure will not stop him. Grasp, on the other hand, laughs at it for thinking Regen will save it.
Mind you all, this is still a work in progress, and my MB/SB cards rotate back and forth a lot. Last week, I ran Grasps MB and Tumble Magnet SB. I am trying to get ready for the SCG tournament in June, which is why I am so heavily set on control than aggro. Kuldotha Red will always out-pace my deck aggro wise, but if I can deal with their threats with 2-for-1 cards like Necropede while stalling to get what I need, then you better believe I will.
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I disagree with this statement wholeheartedly. First, adding blue can slow down a lot of things in a deck. The best infectors all have BB in the casting cost. If you get color screwed, or etbft land screwed, you are slowed quite a bit. As an example, I will post my Mono-black deck and the game results from FNM last Friday.
Opponent: Mr. West
Deck: Kibler's U/B Infect
Total Rounds: 3
This was a deck I had hoped to face tonight. I wanted to test out the deck my friends and I built against one of the strongest Infect decks that have popped up. I was not disappointed in the least.
Game 1 - I lost the roll and kept a hand of Inkmoth Nexus, Swamp, Swamp, Sign in Blood, Necropede, and Tumble Magnet. West played an Inkmoth, and passed the turn. I drew into a Contagion Clasp, played my Nexus, and pass. He drew, played Darkslick Shores, animated Inkmoth, and hit me for 1 poison and then passed the turn. I drew into a Swamp, played the Swamp, and animated my Nexus, hit him for 1 and passed the turn. He played an Island, cast Necropede, and passed his turn. I draw into a Duress, I play a Swamp, cast my Necropede, and pass my turn. He draws, and looks at the board for a few minutes, and laughs at the mirror moves we had been playing. I laugh too, and he plays Drowned Catacombs, casts Contagion Clasp, killing both Necropedes, and then cast a Necropede, and passed turn. I drew into Necropede, cast my Clasp, killing his Necropede, and cast my own second one. I pass the turn. He draws, plays Creeping Tar Pit, and then passes his turn. I drew into Vatmother, played my Swamp, and thought about my next move. With 5 mana opened, I decided it was time to break away from the mirror. I cast duress, and he leaked it. I cast Sign in Blood, and drew into a Swamp and Mind Sludge. I passed my turn, and he drew and cast Tectonic Edge, destroyed my Nexus, and cast Phyrexian Crusader and passed turn. I draw into Duress, play my swamp, cast Duress, only to get it deprived. I took a chance I cast Mind Sludge, and he can't counter it thanks to the Duress he countered. 2 Tezzerets, and a few other little things that didn't matter. I passed, and he drew and played a land, and animated Nexus and swung, then proliferated. I drew into Doom Blade, cast Go for the Throat on his Crusader, and then cast Vatmother. I swung with Necropede, and passed the turn. He drew, played a swamp, animated Nexus, and then proliferated me to 5. I drew into Crusader, took 1 poison, cast Crusader, and swung with Necropede and Vatmother for 5, putting him at 6. He just sighed when he drew, dropped his land, animated Nexus, and found Doom Blade lying in wait. He passed his turn, I drew into Go for the Throat, took a poison, and asked if he could prevent all the poison with 1 Tar Pit. His answer was yes, and so I swung all in. He animated the Pit, and I cast Go for the Throat on it. On to Game 2.
G2 followed a stricter pattern. I sided out the Mothers for Revokers and 2 Sacraments. I ended up losing thanks to him using Vatmothers and me not getting a good first hand. I milled to 5 in the end, keeping Inkmoth, Swamp, Swamp, Duress, and Sadistic Sacrament. I ran out of steam at T5, and couldn't race him any longer. I expected the loss, however
G3 I sided in Skittles for 1 Mind Sludge. I kept a hand of Inkmoth, Duress, Swamp, Swamp, Necropede, Contagion Clasp, Sign in Blood. I played a Swamp, cast Duress, and took out his Tezzy early on, while making notes for the Deprive, Mana Leak, Plague Myr, and Vatmother in his hand. I passed, he played Creeping Tar Pit, and passed. I drew into Sadistic Sacrament, played a swamp, and cast Necropede. He drew, played Darkslick Shores, and cast Plague Myr. I drew into a swamp, played it, and cast Sign in Blood, drawing into Inkmoth and Tumble Magnet. I swung with Necropede, he did not block, and I passed. He drew, played an Island, tapped Plague Myr, cast Phyrexian Vatmother, and passed his turn. I drew into Duress, played my land, cast Duress and got rid of Deprive, and then cast Tumble Magnet. I passed my turn, and he drew, played a Drowned Catacomb, and went to swing with Vatmother. I respond by tapping it with Magnet. He passed, and I draw a Duress. I cast Duress only to have him leak it, which I was more than happy to let him do. I then played Sadistic Sacrament, removing 1 Tezzy and 2 Magnets from the game. I pass the turn. He draws, drops a land, drops a Clasp, killing my Necropede and in turn his Myr, and tried swinging with Vatmother, only to have it get tapped down again. I draw into Sign in Blood, cast it, drawing into Swamp and Skithiryx. I play the Swamp, cast my Clasp weakening his mother, and pass the turn. He draws, plays IoK, and sees the doom upon him. He attacks, gets his mother tapped down for the last time, and passes. I draw into a Tumble Magnet. I know he has 1 counter left in his deck, so I take it easy and cast Magnet. 3 more turns go by with him not getting anything but land, and he scooped after the last draw.
While we might have had turns where we did nothing, we both understood that it was patience that would win. Since he was running U/B, he could not pack as much field control as I could, nor could he use Mind Sludge, which I will admit, was one of the best cards I could ever ask for.
Now then, some might be curious as to my card choices. Let me explain.
1. No Plague Myr.
I was all for Plague Myr when I first saw the card. Mana ramp, for infect? Of course I wanted to play it, and for a while I did. But, it never made much of a difference in the end. I mean, sure, I could get Vatmother and Skithiryx out 1 turn early, but in the end, it ended up being wasted space, so I set off to find something that could deal with cards I had no answers for, like Blightsteel Colussus.
2. Only 3 Inkmoth Nexi.
The reason for this, which is quite easy to see, is the amount of cards that required BB to play. I did not want to get 2 Inkmoth Nexi and 1 Swamp in my opening hand, which happened a lot when I had 4 Inkmoths in there. In total, I have 27 cards with BB in their casting costs, which meant that I needed less Inkmoths and more Swamps.
3. Skithiryx in the SB.
Ok, hear is what will shock many Infect players. The second best infector is in the SB, and as a 2 of. The reason is quite simple: I already have enough high costing cards in the MB, and Skittles is, in my opinion, quite terrible to draw into early game. Normally when I side him in, it is against other Infect Decks, and I usually remove 1 Mind Sludge to play him.
4. So many 3-of's.
The reason I run mostly 3 of's is because it allows me to play more of what I need without running the risk of not drawing it. In fact, the only cards I want to constantly get are my 3 Infect creatures. The rest varies, and since I run 3 of everything else, I could afford to use similar cards, Like Doom Blade and Go For The Throat.
5. Grasp of Darkness over Disfigure.
Ok, hear is my beef with Disfigure, T1, it is a great draw against many aggro decks. T2, not so much. T3-T6, that -2/-2 isn't helping much. Grasp, on the other hand, allows me to kill most things that see play these days, for just BB. A great example is Skittles. A 4/4 haste Infector with Regen. Disfigure will not stop him. Grasp, on the other hand, laughs at it for thinking Regen will save it.
Mind you all, this is still a work in progress, and my MB/SB cards rotate back and forth a lot. Last week, I ran Grasps MB and Tumble Magnet SB. I am trying to get ready for the SCG tournament in June, which is why I am so heavily set on control than aggro. Kuldotha Red will always out-pace my deck aggro wise, but if I can deal with their threats with 2-for-1 cards like Necropede while stalling to get what I need, then you better believe I will.
i'm liking your build.. i'll test taking out 3 myr plague and putting in 3 grasp of darkness, maybe ramping isnt the way to go
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I disagree with this statement wholeheartedly. First, adding blue can slow down a lot of things in a deck. The best infectors all have BB in the casting cost. If you get color screwed, or etbft land screwed, you are slowed quite a bit. As an example, I will post my Mono-black deck and the game results from FNM last Friday.
I'd like Consuming Vapors better than the Gatekeeper. I assume you are using the Gatekeeper always kicked which means you make them sacrifice a blocker and you get a blocker in return for 3cmc. a 2/2 is good for maybe one chump block. However, if you use the Vapors, at 4cmc you remove 2 blockers of any size over 2 turns and force them to play creatures to hold you off instead of playing something else. I think the Vapors would fit better to your aggressive style.
Oh, and what about using Inquisition of Kozilek? What are you looking for other than planeswalkers and removal using Duress?
Jangles, my deck is far from aggressive. In fact, it is a control variant of infect.
Consuming Vapors is decent, but it is limited in its uses. You might get the rebound, but here is something to think about: If your opponent has only 1 creature, then you just wasted the rebound. The reason being is that your opponent will not play another creature to be sac'd to Vapors. They will wait until it rebounds and hits nothing. With Gatekeeper, I get the sac, and I get to keep a blocker around, for 1 less than Vapors. And, what if they have no creatures, or too many creatures? Kuldotha Red is the prime example of that. By T4, you will want something that has an immediate impact, instead of something that has to wait to have the full affect.
As for Duress, I can also take little pieces of strategies that IoK cannot, like Shape Anew and anything else that costs more than 3 to play, which is a lot in Standard. Besides, creatures are not a threat with the removal I have in MB, and boardwipe in SB.
Denz, if you want ramp, Sphere of the Sun is far better, because it will help meet any double-color costs.
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The reason to run 4 is because the Vatmother will be target of alot of removal, so having more as backup helps alot, and with plague Myr it is very easy to reach 4 mana.
In terms of Monument and Knight Exemplar, it is why i run Black Sun's Zenith main and Consume the Meek Sideboard, and Knight Exemplar does not protect itsself from Doom blade
I like the list. A lot. I like the interaction Phyrexian Crusader has with red board sweeping (i.e. 'Doesn't Die'). Is the Mimic Vat worth it in your deck? I've always found it to be a bit of an underwhelming card. I think I might move it to the side in favor of Contagion Clasp, and possibly finding room for Everflowing Chalice.
Check out my signature for a similar list. I've been testing that one for awhile now and I feel like I'm at a good mix. The pyroclasm vs. slagstorm is never ever an issue with me. I have never ever wished I had a turn two pyroclasm in my hand, I usually have either an inquisition or go for the throat or a lightning bolt or all three in my hand, and that usually is enough at the beginning of the game for any match except an extremely bad kuldotha god-hand match. And then once my slagstorm goes off I have control of the board again. So...I'm with you on the duress's I have the 4:1 ratio of IoK and duress, with a 2:2 split of ratchet bombs and tumble magnets. I don't usually see both of those cards during a game but if one shows up I can always find a use for them. If anything, I want to cut out spot removal for more magnets + planeswalker killers. I guess the bolts are great for walkers except for houses like gideon...I don't run the hexmages because frankly like the guy before me said, I have lavaclaw reaches, inkmoths, bolts, slagstorms, magnets, and ratchet bombs to deal with most walkers, and spot removal for a creature-gideon. I like your list and the only thing I would suggest as a necessity would be to up your Sign in Blood to 4. I only ever get beat when my opponent has some nasty CA going on, or an unanswerable bomb like a tutoring liliana vess on the board with a grave titan to block and win for her. Anyway, that's off on a tangent so let the reply commence!
Edit: I like how we are discussing a B/R Infect list on a MBI thread. Oops! =)
My Trades Thread!
And if anybody feels as if it needs a second color to stabilize?
Credit to Five-Handed Lizard Shop for the amazing Sig.
Link
Standard: MBC
EDH:
Kaalia
I liked Chapin's landfall infect but it still lacked against Tier 1 control decks.
I've also liked running Tumble Magnet and Contagion Clasp along with everflowing chalice instead of Plague Myr for ramp to make Black Sun's Zenith more efficient, but found it too slow to compete with aggro decks.
So to compensate I tried to combine them the best I could, here is the list:
4 Phyrexian Crusader
4 Phyrexian Vatmother
2 Skithiryx, the Blight Dragon
Sorceries (12)
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Duress
3 Sign in Blood
3 Black Sun's Zenith
Instants (3)
3 Go for the Throat
4 Adventuring Gear
2 Contagion Clasp
2 Tumble Magnet
3 Everflowing Chalice
Land (24)
4 Inkmoth Nexus
4 Marsh Flats
9 Swamp
3 Tectonic Edge
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Tumble Magnet
3 Marsh Casualties
4 Memoricide
2 Ratchet Bomb
2 Duress
2 Necropede
1 Contagion Clasp
Not sure if it is still lacking or not, hopefully I get the cards I need to play this by Friday to see how it works. I like it more than my previous build perhaps just because it is different from most other infect decks, but I'm not sure if it is any better yet.
I like where are you going with this, but I think when you drop your creatures to ten, there are many times when you will have an adventuring gear or two on the board with nothing to put it on. I would drop the gear altogether, drop to 3 vatmothers, and add 4 necropede for early poison, and add another tumble magnet or contagion clasp.
I'm also not a fan of ramp in MBC Infect, but if you must, use plague myrs instead of everflowing chalice. You don't need to ramp to more than 6, so I can't see proliferating the chalice or casting it on turn 4 to happen very often. I see lots of others using it, so maybe they are on to something, but I wouldn't run it. Or..if you added necropede's instead of the gear, now you have more creatures. Maybe run a few adventuring gear instead of the chalice? I still think you need closer to twenty creatures to justify using equipment. So if it's tier 1 you are trying to beat, but hexmage in for chalice.
I am unsure of using Everflowing Chalice, but don't want to discredit it unless I've tried it. I can see it flowing really nicely with Black Sun's Zenith, Contagion Clasp, and Skithiryx, the Blight Dragon as well as freeing up mana to do more mid to late game..
I do not want to get rid of the Adventuring Gear as I welcome having two or three out. It provides a way to win 4th turn in this deck and gives it some much needed speed (T1&T2: Drop 2 Adventuring Gear, T3: Drop Phyrexian Crusader, T4: Equip both and drop a fetch land, swing for 10 infect.) As well as provide a way to make Inkmoth Nexus more effective since you can be swinging for 5 on turn three with that.
I have noticed a lack of creatures being somewhat detrimental but there seems to be plenty of control to deal with most decks, except perhaps Kuldotha red, which the SB has plenty of answers to.
I believe I'm going to keep the decklist the same for now, and perhaps after more playtesting I might drop the Everflowing Chalice for 2x Contagion Clasp and 1x Tumble Magnet if I find them ineffective.
4 Phyrexian Crusader
4 Phyrexian Vatmother
4 Plague Stinger
2 Plague Myr
2 Necropede
-21
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Duress
2 Doom Blade
2 Go for the Throat
2 Black Sun's Zenith
3 Sign in Blood
3 Tumble Magnet
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Sword of Body and Mind
4 Inkmoth Nexus
2 Tectonic Edge
18 Swamp
4 Vampire Hexmage
1 Duress
2 Black Sun's Zenith
2 Go for the Throat
2 Doom Blade
1 Tumble Magnet
2 Mind Rot
1 Sign in Blood
Havn't done any testing yet, but I plan on trying this out at my shop's casual standard tourny tonight.
It may be the case that other cards are better, but I feel like this has a lot of practical applications that nobody is using. If you use it smart, it's a free poison counter and creature removal for 1 mana. You can even say use it on a creature before attacking to deter a block, then Doom Blade and still get both the removal and the added counter on top of your creatures. Where's the love?
Honestly, Whispersilk Cloak seems better than the Swords. Most decks still have ways to block a Sworded infecter, whereas Cloak will ensure the damage always goes through.
so consistency is a significant gain
but playing U makes the deck much better imo, much more answer potential and distortion strike, cmon
I prefer it to be mono-black since it provides nice consistency as well as having answers to just about all threats.
I've also revised the prior decklist I posted, mainly because I found that Everflowing Chalice didn't help that much and I found myself wanting to draw either a Contagion Clasp or Tumble Magnet much more so than a chalice. I also think that a Contagion Engine might help in case the game goes on too long, and the double proliferation is pretty awesome.
The main problem I run into is planeswalkers and enchantments. I can often get rid of any threats via discard, but there's not much I can do when they get out. Luminarch Ascension is ridiculous against infect. I feel like Necropede is helpful against aggro decks, but I feel Vampire Hexmage may be better, especially since she can still defend and not die. So I changed that in the sideboard as well as adding one more Ratchet Bomb which works quite nicely with proliferation.
So here is the revised deck:
2 Skithiryx, the Blight Dragon
4 Phyrexian Crusader
4 Phyrexian Vatmother
Instants
3 Go for the Throat
Sorceries
2 Duress
3 Sign in Blood
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Black Sun's Zenith
4 Adventuring Gear
3 Contagion Clasp
3 Tumble Magnet
1 Contagion Engine
2 Duress
3 Marsh Casualties
3 Memoricide
1 Tumble Magnet
3 Ratchet Bomb
3 Vampire Hexmage
3 Skithiryx, the blight dragon
2 Phyrexian Vatmother
3 Necropede
4 Phyrexian Crusader
3 Plague Myr
Control
3 Tumble Magnet
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Duress
2 Mind Sludge
3 Contagion Clasp
3 Throne of Geth
2 Contagion Engine
Removal
3 Go for the throat
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Tectonic Edge
1 Inkmoth Nexus
1 Mystifying Maze
20 Swamp
3 Hexmage
3 Spread the Sickness
3 Virulent Wound
3 Doomblade
2 Memoricide
1 ?
I think i'm not missing anything, i wrote it down by memory, i went at FNM with a similiar list, tweeked it a bit a few minutes ago, with my old list did 2-0 (Mono white, didn't get a chance to see what he wus playing); 2-1(BUG Titan ramp); 0-2 (W/U Control, owned by swords, artefact hate post SB and Gideon)
a Few things, im missing ratched, a friend is using 'em in his deck; Spread the sickness is sick, with ramp, at the turn u wanna play it u have at least 1 counter on something to proli, at worst, it's a great turn 6 response to any big guy. Virulent wound is just to great against green/kuldotha
:symw::symb:Steel Wb Weenie
The only equip available in standard that gives double strike is bad.
Anyway, you win should win in 2-3 after playing him without needing double strike.
:symw::symb:Steel Wb Weenie
but if I had to play mono-black (a subpar deck) i would play
18x swamp
3x tectonic edge
4x inkmoth nexus
creatures - 14
4x necropede
4x phyrexian crusader
4x phyrexion vatmother
2x skithyrix
4x inquisition of kozilek
3x go for the throat
2x mind sludge
3x liliiana vess
2x black sun’s zenith
4x contagion clasp
3x tumble magnet
4x Plague Myr
4x Phyrexian Crusader
3x Phyrexian Vatmother
2x Hand of the Praetors
4x Inquisition of Kozelik
2x Duress
2x Go for the Throat
2x Doom Blade
3x Black Sun's Zenith
3x Sign in Blood
4x Inkmoth Nexus
4x Verdant Catacombs
4x Marsh Flats
12x Swamp
3x Vampire Hexmage
4x Memoricide
2x Duress
1x Doom Blade
1x Go for the Throat
So far this deck has been incredibly Aggressive, and won me 3 FNM's, but I'm debating on making it more controlling as opposed to Aggressive, only testing will tell.
My SB needs work, and I had skittles in here for awhile, but I found that in an Aggressive build Hands of the Praetors was much better.
I disagree with this statement wholeheartedly. First, adding blue can slow down a lot of things in a deck. The best infectors all have BB in the casting cost. If you get color screwed, or etbft land screwed, you are slowed quite a bit. As an example, I will post my Mono-black deck and the game results from FNM last Friday.
3 Inkmoth Nexus
4 Phyrexian Vatmother
4 Phyrexian Crusader
4 Necropede
3 Gatekeeper of Malakir
3 Doom Blade
3 Go for the Throat
3 Sign in Blood
3 Tumble Magnet
3 Mind Sludge
3 Contagion Clasp
3 Sadistic Sacrament
2 Black Sun's Zenith
3 Vampire Hexmage
2 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Grasp of Darkness
2 Skithiryx, the Blight Dragon
Opponent: Mr. West
Deck: Kibler's U/B Infect
Total Rounds: 3
This was a deck I had hoped to face tonight. I wanted to test out the deck my friends and I built against one of the strongest Infect decks that have popped up. I was not disappointed in the least.
Game 1 - I lost the roll and kept a hand of Inkmoth Nexus, Swamp, Swamp, Sign in Blood, Necropede, and Tumble Magnet. West played an Inkmoth, and passed the turn. I drew into a Contagion Clasp, played my Nexus, and pass. He drew, played Darkslick Shores, animated Inkmoth, and hit me for 1 poison and then passed the turn. I drew into a Swamp, played the Swamp, and animated my Nexus, hit him for 1 and passed the turn. He played an Island, cast Necropede, and passed his turn. I draw into a Duress, I play a Swamp, cast my Necropede, and pass my turn. He draws, and looks at the board for a few minutes, and laughs at the mirror moves we had been playing. I laugh too, and he plays Drowned Catacombs, casts Contagion Clasp, killing both Necropedes, and then cast a Necropede, and passed turn. I drew into Necropede, cast my Clasp, killing his Necropede, and cast my own second one. I pass the turn. He draws, plays Creeping Tar Pit, and then passes his turn. I drew into Vatmother, played my Swamp, and thought about my next move. With 5 mana opened, I decided it was time to break away from the mirror. I cast duress, and he leaked it. I cast Sign in Blood, and drew into a Swamp and Mind Sludge. I passed my turn, and he drew and cast Tectonic Edge, destroyed my Nexus, and cast Phyrexian Crusader and passed turn. I draw into Duress, play my swamp, cast Duress, only to get it deprived. I took a chance I cast Mind Sludge, and he can't counter it thanks to the Duress he countered. 2 Tezzerets, and a few other little things that didn't matter. I passed, and he drew and played a land, and animated Nexus and swung, then proliferated. I drew into Doom Blade, cast Go for the Throat on his Crusader, and then cast Vatmother. I swung with Necropede, and passed the turn. He drew, played a swamp, animated Nexus, and then proliferated me to 5. I drew into Crusader, took 1 poison, cast Crusader, and swung with Necropede and Vatmother for 5, putting him at 6. He just sighed when he drew, dropped his land, animated Nexus, and found Doom Blade lying in wait. He passed his turn, I drew into Go for the Throat, took a poison, and asked if he could prevent all the poison with 1 Tar Pit. His answer was yes, and so I swung all in. He animated the Pit, and I cast Go for the Throat on it. On to Game 2.
G2 followed a stricter pattern. I sided out the Mothers for Revokers and 2 Sacraments. I ended up losing thanks to him using Vatmothers and me not getting a good first hand. I milled to 5 in the end, keeping Inkmoth, Swamp, Swamp, Duress, and Sadistic Sacrament. I ran out of steam at T5, and couldn't race him any longer. I expected the loss, however
G3 I sided in Skittles for 1 Mind Sludge. I kept a hand of Inkmoth, Duress, Swamp, Swamp, Necropede, Contagion Clasp, Sign in Blood. I played a Swamp, cast Duress, and took out his Tezzy early on, while making notes for the Deprive, Mana Leak, Plague Myr, and Vatmother in his hand. I passed, he played Creeping Tar Pit, and passed. I drew into Sadistic Sacrament, played a swamp, and cast Necropede. He drew, played Darkslick Shores, and cast Plague Myr. I drew into a swamp, played it, and cast Sign in Blood, drawing into Inkmoth and Tumble Magnet. I swung with Necropede, he did not block, and I passed. He drew, played an Island, tapped Plague Myr, cast Phyrexian Vatmother, and passed his turn. I drew into Duress, played my land, cast Duress and got rid of Deprive, and then cast Tumble Magnet. I passed my turn, and he drew, played a Drowned Catacomb, and went to swing with Vatmother. I respond by tapping it with Magnet. He passed, and I draw a Duress. I cast Duress only to have him leak it, which I was more than happy to let him do. I then played Sadistic Sacrament, removing 1 Tezzy and 2 Magnets from the game. I pass the turn. He draws, drops a land, drops a Clasp, killing my Necropede and in turn his Myr, and tried swinging with Vatmother, only to have it get tapped down again. I draw into Sign in Blood, cast it, drawing into Swamp and Skithiryx. I play the Swamp, cast my Clasp weakening his mother, and pass the turn. He draws, plays IoK, and sees the doom upon him. He attacks, gets his mother tapped down for the last time, and passes. I draw into a Tumble Magnet. I know he has 1 counter left in his deck, so I take it easy and cast Magnet. 3 more turns go by with him not getting anything but land, and he scooped after the last draw.
While we might have had turns where we did nothing, we both understood that it was patience that would win. Since he was running U/B, he could not pack as much field control as I could, nor could he use Mind Sludge, which I will admit, was one of the best cards I could ever ask for.
Now then, some might be curious as to my card choices. Let me explain.
1. No Plague Myr.
I was all for Plague Myr when I first saw the card. Mana ramp, for infect? Of course I wanted to play it, and for a while I did. But, it never made much of a difference in the end. I mean, sure, I could get Vatmother and Skithiryx out 1 turn early, but in the end, it ended up being wasted space, so I set off to find something that could deal with cards I had no answers for, like Blightsteel Colussus.
2. Only 3 Inkmoth Nexi.
The reason for this, which is quite easy to see, is the amount of cards that required BB to play. I did not want to get 2 Inkmoth Nexi and 1 Swamp in my opening hand, which happened a lot when I had 4 Inkmoths in there. In total, I have 27 cards with BB in their casting costs, which meant that I needed less Inkmoths and more Swamps.
3. Skithiryx in the SB.
Ok, hear is what will shock many Infect players. The second best infector is in the SB, and as a 2 of. The reason is quite simple: I already have enough high costing cards in the MB, and Skittles is, in my opinion, quite terrible to draw into early game. Normally when I side him in, it is against other Infect Decks, and I usually remove 1 Mind Sludge to play him.
4. So many 3-of's.
The reason I run mostly 3 of's is because it allows me to play more of what I need without running the risk of not drawing it. In fact, the only cards I want to constantly get are my 3 Infect creatures. The rest varies, and since I run 3 of everything else, I could afford to use similar cards, Like Doom Blade and Go For The Throat.
5. Grasp of Darkness over Disfigure.
Ok, hear is my beef with Disfigure, T1, it is a great draw against many aggro decks. T2, not so much. T3-T6, that -2/-2 isn't helping much. Grasp, on the other hand, allows me to kill most things that see play these days, for just BB. A great example is Skittles. A 4/4 haste Infector with Regen. Disfigure will not stop him. Grasp, on the other hand, laughs at it for thinking Regen will save it.
Mind you all, this is still a work in progress, and my MB/SB cards rotate back and forth a lot. Last week, I ran Grasps MB and Tumble Magnet SB. I am trying to get ready for the SCG tournament in June, which is why I am so heavily set on control than aggro. Kuldotha Red will always out-pace my deck aggro wise, but if I can deal with their threats with 2-for-1 cards like Necropede while stalling to get what I need, then you better believe I will.
Currently Running:
Nothing, I have just gotten back after a long hiatus, and am just now starting to rebuild my collection.
i'm liking your build.. i'll test taking out 3 myr plague and putting in 3 grasp of darkness, maybe ramping isnt the way to go
:symw::symb:Steel Wb Weenie
I'd like Consuming Vapors better than the Gatekeeper. I assume you are using the Gatekeeper always kicked which means you make them sacrifice a blocker and you get a blocker in return for 3cmc. a 2/2 is good for maybe one chump block. However, if you use the Vapors, at 4cmc you remove 2 blockers of any size over 2 turns and force them to play creatures to hold you off instead of playing something else. I think the Vapors would fit better to your aggressive style.
Oh, and what about using Inquisition of Kozilek? What are you looking for other than planeswalkers and removal using Duress?
Consuming Vapors is decent, but it is limited in its uses. You might get the rebound, but here is something to think about: If your opponent has only 1 creature, then you just wasted the rebound. The reason being is that your opponent will not play another creature to be sac'd to Vapors. They will wait until it rebounds and hits nothing. With Gatekeeper, I get the sac, and I get to keep a blocker around, for 1 less than Vapors. And, what if they have no creatures, or too many creatures? Kuldotha Red is the prime example of that. By T4, you will want something that has an immediate impact, instead of something that has to wait to have the full affect.
As for Duress, I can also take little pieces of strategies that IoK cannot, like Shape Anew and anything else that costs more than 3 to play, which is a lot in Standard. Besides, creatures are not a threat with the removal I have in MB, and boardwipe in SB.
Denz, if you want ramp, Sphere of the Sun is far better, because it will help meet any double-color costs.
Currently Running:
Nothing, I have just gotten back after a long hiatus, and am just now starting to rebuild my collection.