Jangles, my deck is far from aggressive. In fact, it is a control variant of infect.
Consuming Vapors is decent, but it is limited in its uses. You might get the rebound, but here is something to think about: If your opponent has only 1 creature, then you just wasted the rebound. The reason being is that your opponent will not play another creature to be sac'd to Vapors. They will wait until it rebounds and hits nothing. With Gatekeeper, I get the sac, and I get to keep a blocker around, for 1 less than Vapors. And, what if they have no creatures, or too many creatures? Kuldotha Red is the prime example of that. By T4, you will want something that has an immediate impact, instead of something that has to wait to have the full affect.
As for Duress, I can also take little pieces of strategies that IoK cannot, like Shape Anew and anything else that costs more than 3 to play, which is a lot in Standard. Besides, creatures are not a threat with the removal I have in MB, and boardwipe in SB.
Denz, if you want ramp, Sphere of the Sun is far better, because it will help meet any double-color costs.
Oh, I must have been thinking of another decklist where he said he played infect aggressive. Maybe it was that list with the fetchlands and adventuring gear.
Anyway, point taken in the gatekeeper. I can see it good against KRed and Vamps (which I have seen a lot of late at my local) even Cawblade. However, I still think that if you have some infect creatures out, even if it is only one, having them not play a creature on the rebound would still be good. Making any creature based deck, even Fauna Shaman, delay a turn can help you. They would essentially lose a turn. Otherwise, they have to play two creatures on their turn to keep my Vatmother from getting through.
As for Duress vs IoK, like I mentioned, I have been seeing a lot of Vamps lately and Duress seems to miss a lot. but then I was playing a UB Shape Anew/Colossus deck and I was more concerned about getting rid of 3cmc creatures out of their hand.
Your last statement about removing creatures from their hands is the only reason to play IoK over Duress, to stop early game creatures. However, let's look at the removal in my deck and sb.
That is 14 cards dedicated to creature removal. Toss in Sadistic Sacrament for clearing the threats in the deck, and Mind Sludge/Duress/Phyrexian Revoker, and Tumble Magnet for anything else that could harm my strategy. While it is impossible to get ever card mentioned in one game, the fact is that I have many ways to do the same thing that I need. They don't have Duress's main target in the hand? Sadistic Sacrament will find it for me. One the field already? Revoker and Magnet can stall it, or even stop it out right.
Anyone running Mono-black needs to consider Mind Sludge. The reason being is that it hurts face, bad. If you take away 5 cards out of 6, your opponent is really hurting, because everything they had planned was just wiped away, and they are essentially stuck in top-deck mode.
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Your last statement about removing creatures from their hands is the only reason to play IoK over Duress, to stop early game creatures. However, let's look at the removal in my deck and sb.
That is 14 cards dedicated to creature removal. Toss in Sadistic Sacrament for clearing the threats in the deck, and Mind Sludge/Duress/Phyrexian Revoker, and Tumble Magnet for anything else that could harm my strategy. While it is impossible to get ever card mentioned in one game, the fact is that I have many ways to do the same thing that I need. They don't have Duress's main target in the hand? Sadistic Sacrament will find it for me. One the field already? Revoker and Magnet can stall it, or even stop it out right.
Anyone running Mono-black needs to consider Mind Sludge. The reason being is that it hurts face, bad. If you take away 5 cards out of 6, your opponent is really hurting, because everything they had planned was just wiped away, and they are essentially stuck in top-deck mode.
Ok, point to you.
Speaking of Mind Sludge, I sleeved up your deck for testing and even with only 3 copies of Sludge, I seemed to get it more often in my hand than I like. Now, I am goldfishing and have not had a chance to play anyone with it but with three copies you expect to cast it more than once, correct? Assuming the first doesn't get countered, will the second or even third copies help you out that much? I'm sure actually playing against someone will show me the power of Mind Sludge, but I was just curious how it was working for you. Just wondering whether it would do to run only 2 copies of Mind Sludge and maybe add a Sign in Blood or Tumble Magnet. Or maybe run Mind Rot over Mind Sludge? Having several 3cmc discard card rather than 5cmc discards in hand seems better.
I'm sort of wondering about Virulent Wound. I think it has a lot of potential to be pretty powerful. Besides the obvious of being an instant removal of a 1/1 that also gives your opponent a poison counter, it can also be used as a finisher with a free poison for 1 mana.
It may be the case that other cards are better, but I feel like this has a lot of practical applications that nobody is using. If you use it smart, it's a free poison counter and creature removal for 1 mana. You can even say use it on a creature before attacking to deter a block, then Doom Blade and still get both the removal and the added counter on top of your creatures. Where's the love?
Speaking of Mind Sludge, I sleeved up your deck for testing and even with only 3 copies of Sludge, I seemed to get it more often in my hand than I like. Now, I am goldfishing and have not had a chance to play anyone with it but with three copies you expect to cast it more than once, correct? Assuming the first doesn't get countered, will the second or even third copies help you out that much? I'm sure actually playing against someone will show me the power of Mind Sludge, but I was just curious how it was working for you. Just wondering whether it would do to run only 2 copies of Mind Sludge and maybe add a Sign in Blood or Tumble Magnet. Or maybe run Mind Rot over Mind Sludge? Having several 3cmc discard card rather than 5cmc discards in hand seems better.
I play 2 MS in maindeck, i feel it much better than 3 (used to play 3)
Yesterday a friend suggested the same, Mind Rot, might consider it..
Tumblr Magnet lol works great for me
Speaking of Mind Sludge, I sleeved up your deck for testing and even with only 3 copies of Sludge, I seemed to get it more often in my hand than I like. Now, I am goldfishing and have not had a chance to play anyone with it but with three copies you expect to cast it more than once, correct? Assuming the first doesn't get countered, will the second or even third copies help you out that much? I'm sure actually playing against someone will show me the power of Mind Sludge, but I was just curious how it was working for you. Just wondering whether it would do to run only 2 copies of Mind Sludge and maybe add a Sign in Blood or Tumble Magnet. Or maybe run Mind Rot over Mind Sludge? Having several 3cmc discard card rather than 5cmc discards in hand seems better.
Ah, good question. You see, I have had the same problem, and was thinking of removing 1 MS for something a bit more useful. Honestly, I'd have to say that adding a 4th Tumble Magnet is your best bet. While SiB might give you a better draw, it hurts you as well. Even though we may not care about life in general, our main losses will be from life-loss. Magnet can stall that a bit, and in mirror matches, it can even out-right win us games by tapping down opposing Vatmothers.
My issue with Mind Rot is that it is not effecient enough. Mind Sludge at T5 takes away 5 cards, which means for each mana paid, they lose 1 card, but Mind Rot at T3 only takes away .66 of a card for each mana spent. That isn't efficient enough, at least in my opinion. What you can try, however, is taking away from the point removal in my deck and use them instead. For example, the 3 Hexmages in SB. Take those out, and run MR. If you run into a deck that you need more discard and less removal, you have it. Although honestly, I'd rather just have some Ratchet Bombs in SB.
Virulent Wound has a lot if potential, I admit that. However, for what it does, it isn't good enough. When you play a removal spell, you don't want to target their weakest thing, because it won't hurt you much in the end, EXCEPT if it happens to be a Battlecrier like Signal Pest. But those are mostly only Kred creatures. Using it on a Hawk is kind of pointless, beause 2-3 more will follow, and you didn't do much but give 1 poison counter. Honestly, the space for VW is best served for cards like Black Sun's Zenith, Sadistic Sacrament, and another under-rated card in today's meta, Marsh Casualties.
The ONLY time to run MC over BSZ is if you know that there will be more Kred/Token-based decks vs. Caw-go where you play at. Otherwise, use the Zenith, because it can be more devastating.
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Virulent Wound has a lot if potential, I admit that. However, for what it does, it isn't good enough. When you play a removal spell, you don't want to target their weakest thing, because it won't hurt you much in the end, EXCEPT if it happens to be a Battlecrier like Signal Pest. But those are mostly only Kred creatures. Using it on a Hawk is kind of pointless, beause 2-3 more will follow, and you didn't do much but give 1 poison counter. Honestly, the space for VW is best served for cards like Black Sun's Zenith, Sadistic Sacrament, and another under-rated card in today's meta, Marsh Casualties.
The ONLY time to run MC over BSZ is if you know that there will be more Kred/Token-based decks vs. Caw-go where you play at. Otherwise, use the Zenith, because it can be more devastating.
Hmmmmm.....has anyone looked at the potential of playing BR infect? You mentioning Marsh Causalities gave me an idea. I have played a few BR vamps and I imagine it running similar. I'm going to go take a look at that. It might be worth it to split the mana base to put in pyroclasms and instant burn.
Hmmmmm.....has anyone looked at the potential of playing BR infect? You mentioning Marsh Causalities gave me an idea. I have played a few BR vamps and I imagine it running similar. I'm going to go take a look at that. It might be worth it to split the mana base to put in pyroclasms and instant burn.
Check out my signature. It's as far as I can take it alone, possibly switching the lightning bolts out for virulent wound/disfigure to synergize with clasp/give more poison, and take another look at sarkhan's slot. The only problem with getting rid of bolts is that they double as planeswalker removal and 3 damage kills a whole lotta things virulent wound and disfigure do not.
I'm only posting this because I'm done playing it. I'm not done with it because it's not amazing, I'm done with it because week after week, match after match, this deck has found a way to mana ☺☺☺☺ me with 24 lands in it.
I could post several FNM results and such, but it would only further piss me off. I've seriously considered quitting organized Magic tournaments because of the number of times this deck has screwed me in the 6 weeks I played it. Pour over it at your content. I will say that I had Ichor Rats in the Plague Myr spot for a while but I took it out as, although it had a nice coming-into-play ability, I don't think it ever connected for damage once the entire time I played it. Hand was great for a one-turn pump on Crusader and I won every game where it lasted more than a turn, but it ate removal too quickly to justify the 4 mana spent on it.
Take the list and do what you will with it. I'm not sure I'm going to come back and answer 'why this over this' questions as I'm just moving on from the deck.
I will say that I enjoyed a win off a Contagion Engine after a Mind Sculptor ultimate hit me. I knew what he was going for and knew he couldn't hit it, so I didn't even look at what I drew and won after getting 2 cards shuffled into my library.
@JangelsPrime
From all the BR build I've seen, they seriously lack versus control. While they can handle aggresive build easier, mono-black infect can sideboard in other cards to deal with them such as Marsh Casualties and Ratchet Bomb. Those along with Black Sun's Zenith are normally enough to stop Kuldotha Red and otther aggro decks. The only problem is getting them at the right time...
I feel like mono-black is slightly better than BR since you're less likely to get the wrong mana, don't have to deal with lands coming into play tapped, and you also can deal with control (Duress, Inquisition of Kozilek, Memoricide, Sadistic Sacrament, etc.) AND with aggro (Priorly mentioned cards) and usually not worry about mana (Sorry Djinon, I never had mana problems with 24 lands).
The only color I can see splashing in which would help would be blue, but I'd say you'd need Jace, the Mind Sculptor to make that worth-while. He seems to be a bit better than Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas.
@meterix: what rubbish. I have two decks. MBC and my BR in my sig. Just so you know every card you listed as MBC can be played in a BR list. I play 4 duress and have 3 sad sacs in my sideboard. I run 24 lands, never get screwed and the reason djinon gets mana screwed is cos he runs 7 colorless like a nerd. Test BR please.
Referring to using Livewire Lash, I did some searching on Gatherer for single mana cost spells that we can target our creature equipped with Lash... found these
wow... how could you go wrong with that?? I know it is only a sorcery but... pop for 2 poison counters.. and draw a card! Looks like pure gold for a single black mana. Who cares if you don't need the swampwalk? And if you are against black.... awesomesauce!
@Alai
I know that nearly every black card is viable in a black-red deck, but I just feel that the red isn't needed since black has the answers in itself. The one point I will concede to is that you have access to Lightning Bolt which is a great removal card as well as against planeswalkers, which MBC has some problems against. I'll playtest some BR to see if I was just looking too much at the negatives while undervaluing the positives.
I also play 7 colorless (4 Inkmoth Nexus and 3 Tectonic Edge) and don't get mana screwed. I feel the tectonics are needed versus blue/white for Celestial Colonnade and other infect decks to destroy inkmoths (Or really any manland).
Also these are all just my personal beliefs and I'm no professional players, but I don't see many infect decks that do that great in Tier 1 and I'm doing what I believe is infect's best chance. After looking at Kibler's UB infect list utilizing Jace 1.0 instead of Jace 2.0, I'm contemplating splashing in U, but I still believe that MBC has some viability, just have to find the right combination of cards. Perhaps more disruption to get rid of threats such as planeswalkers I'm not sure, but I'm constantly updating my decklist to give it the best chance, but Nighthaze does have some potential (Mainly in sideboard though).
@MajorMajor1
I used to run a B/U/G Livewire Lash infect deck prior to Mirrodin Beseiged and found it to be too inconsistent, but when it won it was overkill. I feel that the lash is an amazing infect card but has a better place in black/green rather than mono-black to have access to better buffs.
Referring to using Livewire Lash, I did some searching on Gatherer for single mana cost spells that we can target our creature equipped with Lash... found these
wow... how could you go wrong with that?? I know it is only a sorcery but... pop for 2 poison counters.. and draw a card! Looks like pure gold for a single black mana. Who cares if you don't need the swampwalk? And if you are against black.... awesomesauce!
*sigh* I have typed this response 3 times now, and each time it has not posted or I hit the wrong button, so I will skip the whole rambling part and just tell you this right now.
1. It competes for the 1-drop slots, which are occupied by better cards.
2. It is a T3 play, at least.
3. Pay B for a useless ability and get 1 card, how can you go wrong? Simple, by playing it.
4. Sign in Blood is better for drawing, because it gives you card advantage. That is, it lets you get more than what you had before for a reasonable privce.
5. Swampwalk is really gonna hurt Kred, Boros, U/W Caw-blade. See them shaking? No? Neither do I.
Next up, Alai.
You mention Assault Strobe in your deck post, but none are found in deck or SB. Next up, the cards you are running, like Sarkan, seem to just be fillers. And in your SB, you have 4 cards dedicated to artifact kill. Revoker and Ratchet Bomb are better choices than Shatter and Manic Vandal. And, Revoker can deal with Planeswalkers as well. The only card in that deck that I can honestly say I cannot find a replacement for is Lightning Bolt. That seems to be the 1 card that seems like it fits. Slagstorm should be Pyroclasm, imo, because it is so much better for board wipes. In place of Sarkan, try running 2 "Sad Sacs" and 1 more GftT in MB, and then put 1 more Doom Blade in the SB, along with Metallic Mastery.
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@Beloved:
Site specific examples please. What's "filler"? You're hating on my sideboard really hard, which is tailored to my meta, which is filled with UB Tezz. I am probably going to replace at least the vandals with ratchet bombs but in no way is revoker better. It's a creature that is easily dealt with by removal whereas the other spells are a lot harder to deal with and usually only get owned by a counter. Bolt is the one card that I'm having trouble stomaching because it doesn't synergize well with poison counters on a player and lacks the reach that it has in a non-infect deck. Pyroclasm is not going in place of Slagstorm which kills sworded hawks and all kinds of madness. Who needs a turn earlier except vs. tier 1.5 decks like kred that arent even in my meta? Sad Sac is actually coming out and Memoricide going in and I would never ever run it main deck. it's only useful vs valakut and some rogue stuff.
Any other ideas? please be specific. I want to streamline this deck so if you've got arguments I will definitely consider everything you type.
No sideboard yet, but here's a much more controllish take on the deck I plan on sleeving up. Vampire Hexmage is not a creature in this deck, it is merely a sorcery that reads "Destroy target planeswalker." However, against deck where thinking of her like that is a dead idea, she still is a 2/1 first striking blocker :P.
@Beloved:
Site specific examples please. What's "filler"? You're hating on my sideboard really hard, which is tailored to my meta, which is filled with UB Tezz. I am probably going to replace at least the vandals with ratchet bombs but in no way is revoker better. It's a creature that is easily dealt with by removal whereas the other spells are a lot harder to deal with and usually only get owned by a counter. Bolt is the one card that I'm having trouble stomaching because it doesn't synergize well with poison counters on a player and lacks the reach that it has in a non-infect deck. Pyroclasm is not going in place of Slagstorm which kills sworded hawks and all kinds of madness. Who needs a turn earlier except vs. tier 1.5 decks like kred that arent even in my meta? Sad Sac is actually coming out and Memoricide going in and I would never ever run it main deck. it's only useful vs valakut and some rogue stuff.
Any other ideas? please be specific. I want to streamline this deck so if you've got arguments I will definitely consider everything you type.
The main problem that I see, honestly, is Sarkhan the Mad. What is the reason for including him, aside from the card draw? I mean, surely you do not kill things for dragons. That that is his only purpose, run something less expensive.
And it saddens me to hear you say that Sadistic Sacrament is limited. If Tezzeret is the problem, you can take him out. If you are wondering what deck they are running, playing Sadistic Sacrament will help shed some light on their odd plays. In fact, I find that playing Sadistic in the MB, and then siding them out for Memorcide to be one of the best ideas. You learn what threats there are, and you can remove them.
And Phyrexian Revoker might die to removal, but I have found that when you silence a Jace and Venser, there is little in the way of removal. Remember, the SB is to prepare for what you cannot handle with the main deck, not just to pack anti-meta cards in, because metas are always changing. In fact, my area went from Valakut, to Quest, to Caw-go, to Kred all in the same month. Thanks to that, I have learned to better appreciate the efforts to prepare for every Tier 1 and Tier 1.5 deck out there.
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Sarkhan's -4 Ability can target Skittles which is 4 infect damage to a player's face. Plus, he can turdy nasty creatures into Doom Blade / Go for the Throat targets if needed. And last, he's decent card draw when used up.
Sarkhan is a great card to include in B/R infect. Another thing he can do that's overlooked is to turn an opponents creature into a dragon so you can get your pro-red crusader through for the kill. That has won me a couple of games. Still, I think he's best as a 1-of or 2 max.
Other than mind sludge, I see no reason to go mono-black. Pyroclasm and slagstorm are too powerful in today's meta to not be utilizing. And your crusaders, vatmothers, and skittles just shrug them off for a one-sided board wipe. The land base is also perfect too and it helps to have a couple of lavaclaws as blockers/planeswalker killers if you need.
I get the idea behind mono black infect, but I've always been able to hold it off, unlike Green Black infect that only needs to let one creature through in order to end the game T4
I get the idea behind mono black infect, but I've always been able to hold it off, unlike Green Black infect that only needs to let one creature through in order to end the game T4
You see, there are different types of MBI, and just because you held one off, doesn't mean you can hold them all off. So don't need more than 1 creature to get through, others make it impossible to gain any type of control, it depends on the variant. I run a control-variant, so removal is more prominent in mine than in someone's whose is more aggro.
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This is the deck I ran at FNM tonight. I was short on Inkmoths, because the guy I was buying them from flaked on me, and left me with 1 Inkmoth to play. I ended up going 5-0, which is a first for me, as well as any infect deck in my area. Granted, I got match ups that were beyond my belief, but at the same time knew that is my meta was heavily competetive, I could not relax.
Given the lack of time, and equal lack of patience for reading entire turn-by-turn logs, I shall just highlight the key moments.
Game 1:
Opponent: Mr. Ruby
Deck: Boros
My opponent was one of the more experienced players, and was running a modified Boros deck that sided into W/R Cawth-Go. I played a weak first game, because I wanted to see the power cards and most basic patterns they fell into while playing. I lost the first match because I didn't hit Hero of Bladehold the turn it came out, but chose to instead block with Vatmother while Crusader dealt with Plated Geopede. The next turn he played Koth, had 9 poisons already, animated a mountain, and finished me.
Second match was when I started to shine. I sided out Mind Sludge and Duress for my Gatekeepers and my Black Suns. Gatekeepers kept the board clear while Vatmother hit him twice. He scooped when he drew a land. Second match was shorter. I played Doom Blade and Go for the Throat from T2 through T6, waiting to get land, drawing into all 4 Crusaders. I got the land, played 1, passed. He had nothing. I played another, and another land, hit for 2. He played Sqad Hawk, cast 2 more, and passed. I cast a 3rd Crusader having drawn into Black Sun. I hit for 4, passed. He drew, and I asked if he could win this turn. He scooped.
Game 2
Opponent: Mr. Lowe
Deck: Boros
I did the same thing against this deck as I did with the first Boros. I lost the first to glimpse my opponent's strategies, and then used match 2 and 3 to win. Each game, I got 2 Crusaders out side by side. It was ironic, because I had drawn my 3rd one and cast it when he scooped. I had takenj out the deck that had won 4 FNMs in a row
Game 3
Opponent: Mr. Moore
Deck: Mono-White Knights
For a deck that packs soo much black-hate, it showed very little towards my deck. Match 1 was over quickly, with 4 hits from Crusader, thanks to him sending 3 of my Vatmothers on Journeys. Match 2, the Mothers got revenge. I kept his field cleared, and played the Mothers. He journeyed 2 out of 3, the 3rd stiking him down each time.
That was the half way mark, and I already noticed a pattern in my SB. I was removing Duress and MS for Gatekeepers and Black Suns.
Game 4
Opponent: Mr. Rich
Deck: G/B Infect
It is quite poetic that I should face this deck tonight. Last week, I beat U/B Infect, and now I went against G/B, the other major Infect Archetype. First match was mine from the get go. I had an advantage he did not: access to removal cards that he had to limit for pumps. He did not run GftTs, because everyone else was running either Red, Blue, White, Green, or some combination of them. I used Sad Sac to limit what he had, and hit him with Vatmother.
Match 2, he won. I was horrified when I lost 2/3rds of my creatures to Memorcides. Crusaders and Vatmothers were removed, and I understood his game then. I fell for the same trap I set 2 times before.
Match 3, I went first, and killed the BoP he played T1-3. He got mana hosed, and I kept his ramps shut down. I cast a T6 Skittles, hit for 4, then played a T7 Clasp, killing his 4th BoP, and then that was it.
Game 5
Opponent: Mr. Hill
Deck: Mono Green Eldrazi Ramp
This deck was by far the easiest one I faced. Since I was the only undefeated at that point, I got paired down. I Duressed his G. Waves both games, and killed every ramper that touched the field. Both games were over quickly.
I am disappointed that I did not face a true Caw-Blade or Kred, because those are the 2 decks I need to gather more information on before June. Oh well, maybe next week.
I'm annoyed that my card shop only did 3 rounds with 12 people. It looks like that is going to be the norm from now on as well. But we may be starting up EDH Mondays, so that is nice.
Anyway, I went 2-1 for 5th and each round only went to the second game. The two guys that I won against were playing kinda crappy decks. I hate hating on someones decks, especially people coming from casual to comptative, but they were crappy decks. a UW Allies deck (with Venser, which admittedly is kinda cool) and some kind of GR Wurm deck.
The guy I lost too was the guy that went first, so in losing I lost big. He is also playing a Legion of Doom planeswalker deck and is using the FNM to practice for a tournament coming up soon.
His deck plays 10 planeswalkers: Gidion, Tezz 2.0, Jace 2.0, and Venser. He had no creatures except for man lands and Gidion so often times my removal was dead, clasps were good only for prolif, Gatekeepers were dead, and I ate a lot of removal. I was really impressed with Tumble magnets I must say. They let me hang on longer than I should have but even when I sideboarded in Hexmages and Sad Sacs I only pulled one Hexmage which killed Jace and slowed him down but did not stop him.
Tell truth I almost wish I had played my KRed deck. Even if it is not the best built KRed maybe I could have just moved too fast for him.
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Oh, I must have been thinking of another decklist where he said he played infect aggressive. Maybe it was that list with the fetchlands and adventuring gear.
Anyway, point taken in the gatekeeper. I can see it good against KRed and Vamps (which I have seen a lot of late at my local) even Cawblade. However, I still think that if you have some infect creatures out, even if it is only one, having them not play a creature on the rebound would still be good. Making any creature based deck, even Fauna Shaman, delay a turn can help you. They would essentially lose a turn. Otherwise, they have to play two creatures on their turn to keep my Vatmother from getting through.
As for Duress vs IoK, like I mentioned, I have been seeing a lot of Vamps lately and Duress seems to miss a lot. but then I was playing a UB Shape Anew/Colossus deck and I was more concerned about getting rid of 3cmc creatures out of their hand.
3 Go for the Throat
3 Doom Blade
3 Grasp of Darkness
3 Gatekeeper of Malakir
2 Black Sun's Zenith
That is 14 cards dedicated to creature removal. Toss in Sadistic Sacrament for clearing the threats in the deck, and Mind Sludge/Duress/Phyrexian Revoker, and Tumble Magnet for anything else that could harm my strategy. While it is impossible to get ever card mentioned in one game, the fact is that I have many ways to do the same thing that I need. They don't have Duress's main target in the hand? Sadistic Sacrament will find it for me. One the field already? Revoker and Magnet can stall it, or even stop it out right.
Anyone running Mono-black needs to consider Mind Sludge. The reason being is that it hurts face, bad. If you take away 5 cards out of 6, your opponent is really hurting, because everything they had planned was just wiped away, and they are essentially stuck in top-deck mode.
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Ok, point to you.
Speaking of Mind Sludge, I sleeved up your deck for testing and even with only 3 copies of Sludge, I seemed to get it more often in my hand than I like. Now, I am goldfishing and have not had a chance to play anyone with it but with three copies you expect to cast it more than once, correct? Assuming the first doesn't get countered, will the second or even third copies help you out that much? I'm sure actually playing against someone will show me the power of Mind Sludge, but I was just curious how it was working for you. Just wondering whether it would do to run only 2 copies of Mind Sludge and maybe add a Sign in Blood or Tumble Magnet. Or maybe run Mind Rot over Mind Sludge? Having several 3cmc discard card rather than 5cmc discards in hand seems better.
In the current meta Virulent Wound is amazing.
I play 2 MS in maindeck, i feel it much better than 3 (used to play 3)
Yesterday a friend suggested the same, Mind Rot, might consider it..
Tumblr Magnet lol works great for me
Sure is
:symw::symb:Steel Wb Weenie
Ah, good question. You see, I have had the same problem, and was thinking of removing 1 MS for something a bit more useful. Honestly, I'd have to say that adding a 4th Tumble Magnet is your best bet. While SiB might give you a better draw, it hurts you as well. Even though we may not care about life in general, our main losses will be from life-loss. Magnet can stall that a bit, and in mirror matches, it can even out-right win us games by tapping down opposing Vatmothers.
My issue with Mind Rot is that it is not effecient enough. Mind Sludge at T5 takes away 5 cards, which means for each mana paid, they lose 1 card, but Mind Rot at T3 only takes away .66 of a card for each mana spent. That isn't efficient enough, at least in my opinion. What you can try, however, is taking away from the point removal in my deck and use them instead. For example, the 3 Hexmages in SB. Take those out, and run MR. If you run into a deck that you need more discard and less removal, you have it. Although honestly, I'd rather just have some Ratchet Bombs in SB.
Virulent Wound has a lot if potential, I admit that. However, for what it does, it isn't good enough. When you play a removal spell, you don't want to target their weakest thing, because it won't hurt you much in the end, EXCEPT if it happens to be a Battlecrier like Signal Pest. But those are mostly only Kred creatures. Using it on a Hawk is kind of pointless, beause 2-3 more will follow, and you didn't do much but give 1 poison counter. Honestly, the space for VW is best served for cards like Black Sun's Zenith, Sadistic Sacrament, and another under-rated card in today's meta, Marsh Casualties.
The ONLY time to run MC over BSZ is if you know that there will be more Kred/Token-based decks vs. Caw-go where you play at. Otherwise, use the Zenith, because it can be more devastating.
Currently Running:
Nothing, I have just gotten back after a long hiatus, and am just now starting to rebuild my collection.
Hmmmmm.....has anyone looked at the potential of playing BR infect? You mentioning Marsh Causalities gave me an idea. I have played a few BR vamps and I imagine it running similar. I'm going to go take a look at that. It might be worth it to split the mana base to put in pyroclasms and instant burn.
Check out my signature. It's as far as I can take it alone, possibly switching the lightning bolts out for virulent wound/disfigure to synergize with clasp/give more poison, and take another look at sarkhan's slot. The only problem with getting rid of bolts is that they double as planeswalker removal and 3 damage kills a whole lotta things virulent wound and disfigure do not.
My Trades Thread!
4 Plague Myr
4 Phyrexian Crusader
4 Hand of the Praetors
3 Skithiryx, the Blight Dragon
Spells - 16
4 Virulent Wound
3 Duress
4 Doom Blade
2 Grasp of Darkness
1 Morbid Plunder
2 Mind Sludge
4 Contagion Clasp
2 Contagion Engine
Land - 24
4 Inkmoth Nexus
3 Tectonic Edge
17 Swamp
4 Vampire Hexmage
4 Consuming Vapors
4 Black Sun's Zenith
3 Ratchet Bomb
I could post several FNM results and such, but it would only further piss me off. I've seriously considered quitting organized Magic tournaments because of the number of times this deck has screwed me in the 6 weeks I played it. Pour over it at your content. I will say that I had Ichor Rats in the Plague Myr spot for a while but I took it out as, although it had a nice coming-into-play ability, I don't think it ever connected for damage once the entire time I played it. Hand was great for a one-turn pump on Crusader and I won every game where it lasted more than a turn, but it ate removal too quickly to justify the 4 mana spent on it.
Take the list and do what you will with it. I'm not sure I'm going to come back and answer 'why this over this' questions as I'm just moving on from the deck.
I will say that I enjoyed a win off a Contagion Engine after a Mind Sculptor ultimate hit me. I knew what he was going for and knew he couldn't hit it, so I didn't even look at what I drew and won after getting 2 cards shuffled into my library.
From all the BR build I've seen, they seriously lack versus control. While they can handle aggresive build easier, mono-black infect can sideboard in other cards to deal with them such as Marsh Casualties and Ratchet Bomb. Those along with Black Sun's Zenith are normally enough to stop Kuldotha Red and otther aggro decks. The only problem is getting them at the right time...
I feel like mono-black is slightly better than BR since you're less likely to get the wrong mana, don't have to deal with lands coming into play tapped, and you also can deal with control (Duress, Inquisition of Kozilek, Memoricide, Sadistic Sacrament, etc.) AND with aggro (Priorly mentioned cards) and usually not worry about mana (Sorry Djinon, I never had mana problems with 24 lands).
The only color I can see splashing in which would help would be blue, but I'd say you'd need Jace, the Mind Sculptor to make that worth-while. He seems to be a bit better than Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas.
My Trades Thread!
Referring to using Livewire Lash, I did some searching on Gatherer for single mana cost spells that we can target our creature equipped with Lash... found these
Tainted Strike
Vampire's Bite
Virulent Swipe
All of these I had seen before.. but this gem I had not seen before...
Nighthaze
wow... how could you go wrong with that?? I know it is only a sorcery but... pop for 2 poison counters.. and draw a card! Looks like pure gold for a single black mana. Who cares if you don't need the swampwalk? And if you are against black.... awesomesauce!
I know that nearly every black card is viable in a black-red deck, but I just feel that the red isn't needed since black has the answers in itself. The one point I will concede to is that you have access to Lightning Bolt which is a great removal card as well as against planeswalkers, which MBC has some problems against. I'll playtest some BR to see if I was just looking too much at the negatives while undervaluing the positives.
I also play 7 colorless (4 Inkmoth Nexus and 3 Tectonic Edge) and don't get mana screwed. I feel the tectonics are needed versus blue/white for Celestial Colonnade and other infect decks to destroy inkmoths (Or really any manland).
Also these are all just my personal beliefs and I'm no professional players, but I don't see many infect decks that do that great in Tier 1 and I'm doing what I believe is infect's best chance. After looking at Kibler's UB infect list utilizing Jace 1.0 instead of Jace 2.0, I'm contemplating splashing in U, but I still believe that MBC has some viability, just have to find the right combination of cards. Perhaps more disruption to get rid of threats such as planeswalkers I'm not sure, but I'm constantly updating my decklist to give it the best chance, but Nighthaze does have some potential (Mainly in sideboard though).
@MajorMajor1
I used to run a B/U/G Livewire Lash infect deck prior to Mirrodin Beseiged and found it to be too inconsistent, but when it won it was overkill. I feel that the lash is an amazing infect card but has a better place in black/green rather than mono-black to have access to better buffs.
*sigh* I have typed this response 3 times now, and each time it has not posted or I hit the wrong button, so I will skip the whole rambling part and just tell you this right now.
1. It competes for the 1-drop slots, which are occupied by better cards.
2. It is a T3 play, at least.
3. Pay B for a useless ability and get 1 card, how can you go wrong? Simple, by playing it.
4. Sign in Blood is better for drawing, because it gives you card advantage. That is, it lets you get more than what you had before for a reasonable privce.
5. Swampwalk is really gonna hurt Kred, Boros, U/W Caw-blade. See them shaking? No? Neither do I.
Next up, Alai.
You mention Assault Strobe in your deck post, but none are found in deck or SB. Next up, the cards you are running, like Sarkan, seem to just be fillers. And in your SB, you have 4 cards dedicated to artifact kill. Revoker and Ratchet Bomb are better choices than Shatter and Manic Vandal. And, Revoker can deal with Planeswalkers as well. The only card in that deck that I can honestly say I cannot find a replacement for is Lightning Bolt. That seems to be the 1 card that seems like it fits. Slagstorm should be Pyroclasm, imo, because it is so much better for board wipes. In place of Sarkan, try running 2 "Sad Sacs" and 1 more GftT in MB, and then put 1 more Doom Blade in the SB, along with Metallic Mastery.
Currently Running:
Nothing, I have just gotten back after a long hiatus, and am just now starting to rebuild my collection.
Site specific examples please. What's "filler"? You're hating on my sideboard really hard, which is tailored to my meta, which is filled with UB Tezz. I am probably going to replace at least the vandals with ratchet bombs but in no way is revoker better. It's a creature that is easily dealt with by removal whereas the other spells are a lot harder to deal with and usually only get owned by a counter. Bolt is the one card that I'm having trouble stomaching because it doesn't synergize well with poison counters on a player and lacks the reach that it has in a non-infect deck. Pyroclasm is not going in place of Slagstorm which kills sworded hawks and all kinds of madness. Who needs a turn earlier except vs. tier 1.5 decks like kred that arent even in my meta? Sad Sac is actually coming out and Memoricide going in and I would never ever run it main deck. it's only useful vs valakut and some rogue stuff.
Any other ideas? please be specific. I want to streamline this deck so if you've got arguments I will definitely consider everything you type.
My Trades Thread!
4 Necropede
2 Phyrexian Vatmother
1 Skithiryx, the Blight Dragon
2 Liliana Vess
1 Mind Sludge
3 Inquisition to Kozilek
2 Duress
2 Go for the Throat
2 Doom Blade
2 Vampire Hexmage
2 Black Sun's Zenith
3 Tumble Magnet
3 Contagion Clasp
3 Sign in Blood
3 Tectonic Edge
17 Swamp
No sideboard yet, but here's a much more controllish take on the deck I plan on sleeving up. Vampire Hexmage is not a creature in this deck, it is merely a sorcery that reads "Destroy target planeswalker." However, against deck where thinking of her like that is a dead idea, she still is a 2/1 first striking blocker :P.
The main problem that I see, honestly, is Sarkhan the Mad. What is the reason for including him, aside from the card draw? I mean, surely you do not kill things for dragons. That that is his only purpose, run something less expensive.
And it saddens me to hear you say that Sadistic Sacrament is limited. If Tezzeret is the problem, you can take him out. If you are wondering what deck they are running, playing Sadistic Sacrament will help shed some light on their odd plays. In fact, I find that playing Sadistic in the MB, and then siding them out for Memorcide to be one of the best ideas. You learn what threats there are, and you can remove them.
And Phyrexian Revoker might die to removal, but I have found that when you silence a Jace and Venser, there is little in the way of removal. Remember, the SB is to prepare for what you cannot handle with the main deck, not just to pack anti-meta cards in, because metas are always changing. In fact, my area went from Valakut, to Quest, to Caw-go, to Kred all in the same month. Thanks to that, I have learned to better appreciate the efforts to prepare for every Tier 1 and Tier 1.5 deck out there.
Currently Running:
Nothing, I have just gotten back after a long hiatus, and am just now starting to rebuild my collection.
Other than mind sludge, I see no reason to go mono-black. Pyroclasm and slagstorm are too powerful in today's meta to not be utilizing. And your crusaders, vatmothers, and skittles just shrug them off for a one-sided board wipe. The land base is also perfect too and it helps to have a couple of lavaclaws as blockers/planeswalker killers if you need.
Currently Running:
Nothing, I have just gotten back after a long hiatus, and am just now starting to rebuild my collection.
You see, there are different types of MBI, and just because you held one off, doesn't mean you can hold them all off. So don't need more than 1 creature to get through, others make it impossible to gain any type of control, it depends on the variant. I run a control-variant, so removal is more prominent in mine than in someone's whose is more aggro.
Currently Running:
Nothing, I have just gotten back after a long hiatus, and am just now starting to rebuild my collection.
1 Inkmoth Nexus
4 Phyrexian Vatmother
4 Phyrexian Crusader
4 Necropede
3 Doom Blade
3 Go for the Throat
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Duress
3 Tumble Magnet
3 Sign in Blood
2 Contagion Clasp
2 Sadistic Sacrament
2 Mind Sludge
3 Gatekeeper of Malakir
3 Grasp of Darkness
2 Vampire Hexmage
2 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Black Sun's Zenith
1 Skithiryx, the Blight Dragon
1 Mind Sludge
1 Sadistic Sacrament
This is the deck I ran at FNM tonight. I was short on Inkmoths, because the guy I was buying them from flaked on me, and left me with 1 Inkmoth to play. I ended up going 5-0, which is a first for me, as well as any infect deck in my area. Granted, I got match ups that were beyond my belief, but at the same time knew that is my meta was heavily competetive, I could not relax.
Given the lack of time, and equal lack of patience for reading entire turn-by-turn logs, I shall just highlight the key moments.
Game 1:
Opponent: Mr. Ruby
Deck: Boros
My opponent was one of the more experienced players, and was running a modified Boros deck that sided into W/R Cawth-Go. I played a weak first game, because I wanted to see the power cards and most basic patterns they fell into while playing. I lost the first match because I didn't hit Hero of Bladehold the turn it came out, but chose to instead block with Vatmother while Crusader dealt with Plated Geopede. The next turn he played Koth, had 9 poisons already, animated a mountain, and finished me.
Second match was when I started to shine. I sided out Mind Sludge and Duress for my Gatekeepers and my Black Suns. Gatekeepers kept the board clear while Vatmother hit him twice. He scooped when he drew a land. Second match was shorter. I played Doom Blade and Go for the Throat from T2 through T6, waiting to get land, drawing into all 4 Crusaders. I got the land, played 1, passed. He had nothing. I played another, and another land, hit for 2. He played Sqad Hawk, cast 2 more, and passed. I cast a 3rd Crusader having drawn into Black Sun. I hit for 4, passed. He drew, and I asked if he could win this turn. He scooped.
Game 2
Opponent: Mr. Lowe
Deck: Boros
I did the same thing against this deck as I did with the first Boros. I lost the first to glimpse my opponent's strategies, and then used match 2 and 3 to win. Each game, I got 2 Crusaders out side by side. It was ironic, because I had drawn my 3rd one and cast it when he scooped. I had takenj out the deck that had won 4 FNMs in a row
Game 3
Opponent: Mr. Moore
Deck: Mono-White Knights
For a deck that packs soo much black-hate, it showed very little towards my deck. Match 1 was over quickly, with 4 hits from Crusader, thanks to him sending 3 of my Vatmothers on Journeys. Match 2, the Mothers got revenge. I kept his field cleared, and played the Mothers. He journeyed 2 out of 3, the 3rd stiking him down each time.
That was the half way mark, and I already noticed a pattern in my SB. I was removing Duress and MS for Gatekeepers and Black Suns.
Game 4
Opponent: Mr. Rich
Deck: G/B Infect
It is quite poetic that I should face this deck tonight. Last week, I beat U/B Infect, and now I went against G/B, the other major Infect Archetype. First match was mine from the get go. I had an advantage he did not: access to removal cards that he had to limit for pumps. He did not run GftTs, because everyone else was running either Red, Blue, White, Green, or some combination of them. I used Sad Sac to limit what he had, and hit him with Vatmother.
Match 2, he won. I was horrified when I lost 2/3rds of my creatures to Memorcides. Crusaders and Vatmothers were removed, and I understood his game then. I fell for the same trap I set 2 times before.
Match 3, I went first, and killed the BoP he played T1-3. He got mana hosed, and I kept his ramps shut down. I cast a T6 Skittles, hit for 4, then played a T7 Clasp, killing his 4th BoP, and then that was it.
Game 5
Opponent: Mr. Hill
Deck: Mono Green Eldrazi Ramp
This deck was by far the easiest one I faced. Since I was the only undefeated at that point, I got paired down. I Duressed his G. Waves both games, and killed every ramper that touched the field. Both games were over quickly.
I am disappointed that I did not face a true Caw-Blade or Kred, because those are the 2 decks I need to gather more information on before June. Oh well, maybe next week.
Currently Running:
Nothing, I have just gotten back after a long hiatus, and am just now starting to rebuild my collection.
2 Ichorclaw Myr
2 Phyrexian Crusaders
3 Gatekeeper of Malakir
4 Phyrexian Vatmother
1 Skithiryx, the Blight Dragon
3 Doom Blade
3 Go for the Throat
3 Duress
2 Mind Sludge
3 Contagion Clasp
4 Tumble Magnet
3 Sign in Blood
3 Inkmoth Nexus
3 Vampire Hexmage
3 Sadistic Sacrament
2 Skithiryx, the Blight Dragon
2 Black Sun's Zenith
3 Grasp of Darkness
I'm annoyed that my card shop only did 3 rounds with 12 people. It looks like that is going to be the norm from now on as well. But we may be starting up EDH Mondays, so that is nice.
Anyway, I went 2-1 for 5th and each round only went to the second game. The two guys that I won against were playing kinda crappy decks. I hate hating on someones decks, especially people coming from casual to comptative, but they were crappy decks. a UW Allies deck (with Venser, which admittedly is kinda cool) and some kind of GR Wurm deck.
The guy I lost too was the guy that went first, so in losing I lost big. He is also playing a Legion of Doom planeswalker deck and is using the FNM to practice for a tournament coming up soon.
His deck plays 10 planeswalkers: Gidion, Tezz 2.0, Jace 2.0, and Venser. He had no creatures except for man lands and Gidion so often times my removal was dead, clasps were good only for prolif, Gatekeepers were dead, and I ate a lot of removal. I was really impressed with Tumble magnets I must say. They let me hang on longer than I should have but even when I sideboarded in Hexmages and Sad Sacs I only pulled one Hexmage which killed Jace and slowed him down but did not stop him.
Tell truth I almost wish I had played my KRed deck. Even if it is not the best built KRed maybe I could have just moved too fast for him.