I built a goblin burn deck to play test against as I relearn magic. The problem is every deck I put thought into and try to create around different win conditions just looses to this random goblin bolt fireball deck that took me 10 minutes to put together.
But instead of going on about that...I have to admit that it takes a bit of skill to pilot. A control deck can frequently make one mistake and recover, as can midrange decks. A RDW player simply cannot make a mistake or they lose. And sometimes the choice between burning a creature or a face is razor thin and it takes a very astute mind to find the right play.
In games where the RDW player doesn't draw his I Win 7, a wonderful tension can arise where he has his opponent on the ropes but is running out of gas. It's thrilling when I play control and have to decide what to counter or let through. Those games that come down to one turn are lots of fun. In effect, the RDW player places the control player in the position where he must make difficult decisions. Putting your opponent to the test with a fast deck is quite a valid strategy.
Also, let's face it- RDW keeps the meta honest.
Excellent post. I was going to write something similar last night but went with the shorter version instead. What it really boils down to in red vs control is first mistake generally loses, with red winning some games off of a great draw and best play on both sides and control winning some off of inevitability when red loses steam. Those games where one mistake does it are the best of Magic.
RDW is a viable and legitimate strategy. Those who troll are usually hates; they hate that a budget deck can win, they hate that a simple strategy can win, and they hate Red for being a humbling color. These are the type to play awesum control decks that stabilize after turn 3 by which time RDW dealt 20+ damage.
I'm all for RDW, except I would never play anything Red that isn't a sorcery or dragon, but that's just a matter of bias over static creatures.
I'll probably get crucified for asking this...but why don't more red decks run Chandra Ablaze for card advantage?
I actually agree with you and in fact picked up a playset of Ablaze awaiting their rise in value. I ended up selling it for the same $10 that I picked it up for. Right now, RDW is not really on the "Pro's" radar since there are so many other fun cards.
I agree that RDW can be a tough deck to play. The toughest part is trying to get your opponent down to 0 life as fast as you can while knowing what answers they'll try to play and how you will adapt. There are many games where a RDW player gets someone to 1 or 2 life when they should have won the game. It's painful for me to watch because in my opinion, I usually see "lesser" players play RDW type decks unless it is a good player trying to get a hit in the metagame that day.
There is a stigma with RDW style decks because they seem so easy to play, lesser player play them often (in my opinion), they beat certain decks in the metagame that would otherwise have excellent matchups vs. nearly anything else, and they autofold to certain decks or cards.
The advantage about playing RDW decks is that you will have more time in between rounds, win or lose. This can be invaluable in a big tournament, but overall it is very tough to get 1st place with RDW ever since Magus of the Scroll, Magus of the Moon, Demigod Red. I would say that was the last time that RDW in Standard was a solid Tier 1 (I know some will argue with this.).
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Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
I never understood why people even bother to insult people on they're deck choices. I hated playing against jund, but I did not hate the player playing jund, and never questioned they're choice in decks. It is what it is. Its like Insulting someone for getting pepperoni on they're pizza instead of someone unique like lets say artichoke hearts. Your insulting someone for they're tastes and that is just pointless.
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Tried to pull away, but now I'm Back At it
Love is Emphatic, cards need to be played
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Yea, those are MTG Bars. What can I say, I am a dork
I have been playing Kuldotha red since rotation and I hate playing, every time I go to a tournament I feel like punching myself in the face. The only reason I play it is because A) I refuse to spend money on jace B) Valakut is even easier to play than Kuldotha and C) it does win, regardless of what people say it is a competative deck that if played by a skilled pilot can do very well. I have made and split the prize for top 2 spots in the last 3 FNM's that I have attended with the deck, if you know how to play magic better than the average person it always gives you a chance to do well.
I wish I had 400 dollars laying around so I could play a real deck like RUG, but my common sense is holding me back so I will be stuck with this deck till something better without jace is built.
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Retired:
ANT, Legacy (75% Foiled) Over all record 21-5-4. RIP
U/R Splinter Twin, Standard 39-10-15 TWINNING!
I would never hate on someone for the deck they chose; that's what sideboards are for.
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Sig by ChibiSwan~!
"Well, well, if it isn't the most diabolical haters this side of the Mississippi." Alters and Commissions at [URL="noodlesndoodlesalters.tumblr.com/"]Noodles & Doodles Alters[/URL]!
Have a helicopter drop you off out front. Light your cigar with a small Indonesian boy holding a black lotus. Then bust out a craw wurm deck with no sleeves. Raw dog shuffle, loose terribly, flip the table, leave in a hovercraft.
I'm a firm believer in that people only treat you how you let them. If someones really trying to clown on you for playing red and you react like "oh her der i know" your only opening yourself up for more of it. If you just keep an air of IDGAF and play confidently and even a lil smug while pounding their $500 control deck it REALLY gets under their skin and flips it back on them. Who cares what you win with? If your opponents who know they'll be facing Red aren't smart enough to sideboard accordingly then whose the bad player in that scenario?? It's not like red isn't easily hated out right now...
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RBVampires of Oxid RidgeBR RMythic RedR RRDWR
EDH GRBAdun OakenshieldBRG
I have to admit, as a control player it really bugs me that RDW can just get those "oops, I win" draws. But I wouldn't get angry at the person who played it, I would just be angry at myself for not building the deck as well as I should have against it. Like Xover said, its like insulting someone's taste in something, which is incredibly rude.
EDIT: 100% agree with Badjuju. That is what Sideboards are for.
I never understood why people even bother to insult people on they're deck choices. I hated playing against jund, but I did not hate the player playing jund, and never questioned they're choice in decks. It is what it is. Its like Insulting someone for getting pepperoni on they're pizza instead of someone unique like lets say artichoke hearts. Your insulting someone for they're tastes and that is just pointless.
In fact, on these forums, when people feel you've insulted control players, they flame you into oblivion and chase you out of the thread if they can.
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Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not watching.
Seriously? You think "Legacy goblins makes decisions about what to tutor for with Matron!" is even remotely relevant for a discussion about decision-tree complexity in standard? Do you really think this or are you just being contentious & trolling?
No, I simply said that the only examples for complex red decision trees I could think of were Legacy. That's not to say Standard red doesn't make decisions that are as impactful or potentially varied. Both decks revolve around "play/attack with goblins and do things that are highly synergistic" was my point. Oftentimes involving explosive out-of-nowhere hasted attacks.
I would never hate on someone for the deck they chose; that's what sideboards are for.
If I were the type to have quotes in her sig, this would be a strong contender.
I think people just don't appreciate such a straightforwardness that red offers, which others take as "skill-less" or "decision-less."
There is obviously skill involved in playing almost any deck, but control players almost always think control takes more skill.
I never understood the skill in playing a blocker early, getting to 4 mana to play a sweeper, counter opposing Planeswalkers, then drop a fat creature after 15 turns.
I think people just don't appreciate such a straightforwardness that red offers, which others take as "skill-less" or "decision-less."
There is obviously skill involved in playing almost any deck, but control players almost always think control takes more skill.
I never understood the skill in playing a blocker early, getting to 4 mana to play a sweeper, counter opposing Planeswalkers, then drop a fat creature after 15 turns.
I definitely think that the play of a good aggro player in not overextending during the control matchup can often be more sophisticated than the reactive nature of the control player's decisions.
I think its largely down to a sense of 'I could easily have beaten them if I had the right hate cards'. In general, people hate losing to linear strategies that they could hate out but didn't because they didn't think it was worth it. I noticed this when I was playing allies last year
Sure, sometimes when I lose to a red deck, just after removing an important piece of by anti-aggro suite, I feel frustrated. Though this is true when I lose to other linear strategies as well, such as valakut. Ultimately though, its only my own fault for underestimating the speed/consistency/prevalence of that deck, and I deserve to lose to it if I fail to give it proper respect. But some people just decide to get annoyed with the other player instead.
A skilled player wants to create as many opportunities for their opponents to misplay, or for them to outplay the opponent, as possible. Sligh/RDW/etc-style decks have never been decks with a lot of decision trees for either player.
Honestly that doesn't make much sense to me. IMO a skilled player should do everything in his power to limit an opponents options, not give them more.
I definitely think that the play of a good aggro player in not overextending during the control match up can often be more sophisticated than the reactive nature of the control player's decisions.
Personally I think there is a fair amount of truth in this as well.
I've never understood how a control player can consider themselves skilled and yet think red decks take no skill. I play red decks in pretty much any format ever, and the amount of decision-making is impressive.
True story. In addition to keeping track of the math to maximize your damage you have to keep track of a slew of other factors (what your opponent is playing, doing, what kind of hand he/she has, what to hold back, when/what to burn, etc. etc.).
In fact, I'd say that you're more punished for a "mis-play" with an aggressive red deck than you are for mis-playing with most control decks.
Red decks have no solid CA or fatties to recoup the mistake, and every single card/play matters more because of that.
At my local shop if you're running any form of RDW you're considered
1.Bad
2.On a budget
3.Look at 1
I play KRDW and am an original player at the shop; the trolling is funny to me, because I've known people that play at the shop, but when other people: young,new, or original players are playing RDW and get trolled I don't think they really enjoy being trolled for picking the color RED
is it just my city that hates people that play red? share opinions
People like what they like and play what they play, no one should talk down to someone for what they play. Not everyone has access to top cards or even prefers to play top "net" decks. Varity is a good thing.
I definitely think that the play of a good aggro player in not overextending during the control matchup can often be more sophisticated than the reactive nature of the control player's decisions.
also this. Just because someone uses Brute Force doesn't mean they ain't using good strategy along with it.
I'll probably get crucified for asking this...but why don't more red decks run Chandra Ablaze for card advantage?
I would have to agree, going back to my previous statement. Just because Chandra Ablaze costs 6, doesn't mean she's worthless in RDW. After all, if it does get to that late in the game, then she could be a game winner, if you can keep her around for the ultimate. (and provided you have quite a few cards in the GY already, which given by it lasting that long...)
Blue players win tournaments, make more money in winnings, and can brag to girls about how famous they are.
Yeah, I'm sure Brad Nelson is over in Paris puttin' in work as we speak.
The exception to this rule is, as always, Brian Kibler, who can practically impregnate a girl just by shuffling a Magic deck beside her.
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Sig by ChibiSwan~!
"Well, well, if it isn't the most diabolical haters this side of the Mississippi." Alters and Commissions at [URL="noodlesndoodlesalters.tumblr.com/"]Noodles & Doodles Alters[/URL]!
Have a helicopter drop you off out front. Light your cigar with a small Indonesian boy holding a black lotus. Then bust out a craw wurm deck with no sleeves. Raw dog shuffle, loose terribly, flip the table, leave in a hovercraft.
Yeah, I'm sure Brad Nelson is over in Paris puttin' in work as we speak.
The exception to this rule is, as always, Brian Kibler, who can practically impregnate a girl just by shuffling a Magic deck beside her.
Forget being beside her, he could do it over the internet and 9 months later he be having 1000 new babies mamas.
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Tried to pull away, but now I'm Back At it
Love is Emphatic, cards need to be played
Hailing from the BA, accumulating CA"
Yea, those are MTG Bars. What can I say, I am a dork
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Kuldotha Red is just "ok" mostly because it's inconsistent.
RWBoros LandfallWR
GWRG/w/r Fauna ShamanRWG
Excellent post. I was going to write something similar last night but went with the shorter version instead. What it really boils down to in red vs control is first mistake generally loses, with red winning some games off of a great draw and best play on both sides and control winning some off of inevitability when red loses steam. Those games where one mistake does it are the best of Magic.
I'm all for RDW, except I would never play anything Red that isn't a sorcery or dragon, but that's just a matter of bias over static creatures.
I actually agree with you and in fact picked up a playset of Ablaze awaiting their rise in value. I ended up selling it for the same $10 that I picked it up for. Right now, RDW is not really on the "Pro's" radar since there are so many other fun cards.
I agree that RDW can be a tough deck to play. The toughest part is trying to get your opponent down to 0 life as fast as you can while knowing what answers they'll try to play and how you will adapt. There are many games where a RDW player gets someone to 1 or 2 life when they should have won the game. It's painful for me to watch because in my opinion, I usually see "lesser" players play RDW type decks unless it is a good player trying to get a hit in the metagame that day.
There is a stigma with RDW style decks because they seem so easy to play, lesser player play them often (in my opinion), they beat certain decks in the metagame that would otherwise have excellent matchups vs. nearly anything else, and they autofold to certain decks or cards.
The advantage about playing RDW decks is that you will have more time in between rounds, win or lose. This can be invaluable in a big tournament, but overall it is very tough to get 1st place with RDW ever since Magus of the Scroll, Magus of the Moon, Demigod Red. I would say that was the last time that RDW in Standard was a solid Tier 1 (I know some will argue with this.).
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)Tried to pull away, but now I'm Back At it
Love is Emphatic, cards need to be played
Hailing from the BA, accumulating CA"
RWBoros LandfallWR
GWRG/w/r Fauna ShamanRWG
I wish I had 400 dollars laying around so I could play a real deck like RUG, but my common sense is holding me back so I will be stuck with this deck till something better without jace is built.
ANT, Legacy (75% Foiled) Over all record 21-5-4. RIP
U/R Splinter Twin, Standard 39-10-15 TWINNING!
Sig by ChibiSwan~!
"Well, well, if it isn't the most diabolical haters this side of the Mississippi."
Alters and Commissions at [URL="noodlesndoodlesalters.tumblr.com/"]Noodles & Doodles Alters[/URL]!
RMythic RedR
RRDWR
EDH
GRBAdun OakenshieldBRG
EDIT: 100% agree with Badjuju. That is what Sideboards are for.
In fact, on these forums, when people feel you've insulted control players, they flame you into oblivion and chase you out of the thread if they can.
No, I simply said that the only examples for complex red decision trees I could think of were Legacy. That's not to say Standard red doesn't make decisions that are as impactful or potentially varied. Both decks revolve around "play/attack with goblins and do things that are highly synergistic" was my point. Oftentimes involving explosive out-of-nowhere hasted attacks.
If I were the type to have quotes in her sig, this would be a strong contender.
There is obviously skill involved in playing almost any deck, but control players almost always think control takes more skill.
I never understood the skill in playing a blocker early, getting to 4 mana to play a sweeper, counter opposing Planeswalkers, then drop a fat creature after 15 turns.
WBG Karador GBW
R Daretti R
RG Omnath GR
WRG Modern Burn GRW
WB Modern Tokens BW
DCI Rules Advisor as of 5/18/2015
I definitely think that the play of a good aggro player in not overextending during the control matchup can often be more sophisticated than the reactive nature of the control player's decisions.
Sure, sometimes when I lose to a red deck, just after removing an important piece of by anti-aggro suite, I feel frustrated. Though this is true when I lose to other linear strategies as well, such as valakut. Ultimately though, its only my own fault for underestimating the speed/consistency/prevalence of that deck, and I deserve to lose to it if I fail to give it proper respect. But some people just decide to get annoyed with the other player instead.
2011-2012:Bantblade, BantPod
2010-2011:Bant Shaman, Naya Shaman, Naya allies + Scars, URG Turboforce
2009-2010:Naya allies, Mono-White Titan Control
Honestly that doesn't make much sense to me. IMO a skilled player should do everything in his power to limit an opponents options, not give them more.
Personally I think there is a fair amount of truth in this as well.
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True story. In addition to keeping track of the math to maximize your damage you have to keep track of a slew of other factors (what your opponent is playing, doing, what kind of hand he/she has, what to hold back, when/what to burn, etc. etc.).
In fact, I'd say that you're more punished for a "mis-play" with an aggressive red deck than you are for mis-playing with most control decks.
Red decks have no solid CA or fatties to recoup the mistake, and every single card/play matters more because of that.
People like what they like and play what they play, no one should talk down to someone for what they play. Not everyone has access to top cards or even prefers to play top "net" decks. Varity is a good thing.
This. If you stall out a Burn deck, then odds of you winning will, barring luck, be a lot higher.
also this. Just because someone uses Brute Force doesn't mean they ain't using good strategy along with it.
I would have to agree, going back to my previous statement. Just because Chandra Ablaze costs 6, doesn't mean she's worthless in RDW. After all, if it does get to that late in the game, then she could be a game winner, if you can keep her around for the ultimate. (and provided you have quite a few cards in the GY already, which given by it lasting that long...)
Standard: UWR
Modern: RDW, Twin
Legacy: I am 3 Candelabra of Tawnos from being able to build almost any tier 1 or 1.5 deck. Here are the ones I care about right now:
-Aggro: UWR/RUB/WUB/RUG/UR Delver; Affinity; Burn
-Control: Stoneblade; UWr Miracles; UB Tezzeret
-Combo: Hive Mind; Combo Elves; Omni Tell; T.E.S.
Vintage: Grixis Painter
EDH: Rith, the Awakener
Yeah, I'm sure Brad Nelson is over in Paris puttin' in work as we speak.
The exception to this rule is, as always, Brian Kibler, who can practically impregnate a girl just by shuffling a Magic deck beside her.
Sig by ChibiSwan~!
"Well, well, if it isn't the most diabolical haters this side of the Mississippi."
Alters and Commissions at [URL="noodlesndoodlesalters.tumblr.com/"]Noodles & Doodles Alters[/URL]!
Format: Standard - NPH
Location: 2011 MMS Qualifier - Minneapolis, MN (6/4)
Players: 99
Finished: 2nd Place
TRADE THREAD
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=347708
Forget being beside her, he could do it over the internet and 9 months later he be having 1000 new babies mamas.
Tried to pull away, but now I'm Back At it
Love is Emphatic, cards need to be played
Hailing from the BA, accumulating CA"