I think you guys are overvaluing planeswalkers in this strategy. A deck is only as good as it is against the other decks in the meta. There's a reason that UW/ UWr boards out all Jaces against Jund: they're just terrible against the cards that deck play with. In a metagame where you either face Bloodbraid Elf (Jund, Naya), Vengevine (NLB, Naya) or expect to be dead by turn 5 (Mono-Red, Mythic Conscription), any non-Elspeth planeswalkers simply doesn't cut it, not to mention lack of Wall of Omens.
Regress? Roiling Terrain? Khalni Gem? I understand maybe you guys want to revive U/R Magnivore, but the card pool right now simply can't support it. Baring any matchup where Mono-Red is involved, Standard right now is a big war of board presence. And it rightly should be, as the most powerful cards in the format revolves around that mechanic (Bloodbraid Elf, Noble Hierarch, Vengevine, Elspeth, Wall of Omens... you see the idea.
When you play Wildfire after playing Izzet Signet and Annex / Confiscate, you expect to not win right away, but recover much better than the opponent and win subsequently. Destructive Force cost 7RR and make each player sacrifice 5 lands. The difference is important. The card available to us is much slower, and harder to abuse. I hope you can see the difference. Also, back in the days, you expect to face Zoo, RG aggro and BW Hand in Hand. Wildfire against these aggro decks tend to be equal or most likely 1-up for you in term of cards even if you get crippled. That was why the strategy was successful. Now we look across the table and see Bloodbraid Elf, Vengevine, Elspeth, and Sprouting Thrinax. The same strategy can't be applied anymore and needs to be evolved.
All i'm saying is, we need to play cards that interact favorable or equally with the best cards in the format (AKA good cards). If you take a look at my list, any of the cards are respectable and played in one archtype or another. They also work great together ( which is the point about making a deck, not that I disagree with all the other choices, they just don't compare to better cards) I'm definitely in favor of the green variant.
Well so far, Dread Statuary is a good beater. But like you said, sometimes I just have to kill it off in favor of keeping colored lands. Its rare, but it happens. All in all, I like it and wouldn't take it out yet.
Regress is kind an answer to a LOT of things.
PRE DF it keeps your opponent off land and bounces monument so you can DF
AFTER DF it can bounce walkers, pretty much assuring that you won;t see them again, AND it keeps them off land.
Overall, it's very solid so far.
As for All Is Dust, I want to put one more SOMEWHERE. Probably in the SB. It's pretty much our only answer to UWr walkers and indestructible junk.
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I think you guys are overvaluing planeswalkers in this strategy. A deck is only as good as it is against the other decks in the meta. There's a reason that UW/ UWr boards out all Jaces against Jund: they're just terrible against the cards that deck play with. In a metagame where you either face Bloodbraid Elf (Jund, Naya), Vengevine (NLB, Naya) or expect to be dead by turn 5 (Mono-Red, Mythic Conscription), any non-Elspeth planeswalkers simply doesn't cut it, not to mention lack of Wall of Omens.
Regress? Roiling Terrain? Khalni Gem? I understand maybe you guys want to revive U/R Magnivore, but the card pool right now simply can't support it. Baring any matchup where Mono-Red is involved, Standard right now is a big war of board presence. And it rightly should be, as the most powerful cards in the format revolves around that mechanic (Bloodbraid Elf, Noble Hierarch, Vengevine, Elspeth, Wall of Omens... you see the idea.
When you play Wildfire after playing Izzet Signet and Annex / Confiscate, you expect to not win right away, but recover much better than the opponent and win subsequently. Destructive Force cost 7RR and make each player sacrifice 5 lands. The difference is important. The card available to us is much slower, and harder to abuse. I hope you can see the difference. Also, back in the days, you expect to face Zoo, RG aggro and BW Hand in Hand. Wildfire against these aggro decks tend to be equal or most likely 1-up for you in term of cards even if you get crippled. That was why the strategy was successful. Now we look across the table and see Bloodbraid Elf, Vengevine, Elspeth, and Sprouting Thrinax. The same strategy can't be applied anymore and needs to be evolved.
All i'm saying is, we need to play cards that interact favorable or equally with the best cards in the format (AKA good cards). If you take a look at my list, any of the cards are respectable and played in one archtype or another. They also work great together ( which is the point about making a deck, not that I disagree with all the other choices, they just don't compare to better cards) I'm definitely in favor of the green variant.
Bear in mind that Destructive Force is a 7-drop. Not a 9-drop. It isn't going to be played on turn nine. That puts it on par with Cruel Ultimatum, which has been played successfully without ramp for over a year and continues to be played.
Bear in mind that Destructive Force is a 7-drop. Not a 9-drop. It isn't going to be played on turn nine. That puts it on par with Cruel Ultimatum, which has been played successfully without ramp for over a year and continues to be played.
Cruel Ultimatum has not seen play since the rotation of Lorwyn Block. BUR Cruel Control is a niche deck that doesn't do well. Also, you talk about not ramping, but you play Dreamstone Hedron and Khalni Gem with Voltaic Key and Tezzeret the Seeker. You're not even ramping to Eldrazis like Mono-White Control is doing with its mana.
Comparing the 2 cards is also a bit off. Cruel, while color intensive, will win you the game 9 out of 10 times, probably 19 out of 20 times you resolve it. Without any other support from other cards. Destructive Force simply take more work.
What I'm trying to say is, a deck made with goal in mind being win on the spot when Destructive Force is cast is unlikely to succeed, because it's a narrow strategy that leads you to play mediocre cards and the card itself isn't of the right material.
Cruel Ultimatum has not seen play since the rotation of Lorwyn Block. BUR Cruel Control is a niche deck that doesn't do well. Also, you talk about not ramping, but you play Dreamstone Hedron and Khalni Gem with Voltaic Key and Tezzeret the Seeker. You're not even ramping to Eldrazis like Mono-White Control is doing with its mana.
Comparing the 2 cards is also a bit off. Cruel, while color intensive, will win you the game 9 out of 10 times, probably 19 out of 20 times you resolve it. Without any other support from other cards. Destructive Force simply take more work.
What I'm trying to say is, a deck made with goal in mind being win on the spot when Destructive Force is cast is unlikely to succeed, because it's a narrow strategy that leads you to play mediocre cards and the card itself isn't of the right material.
What? Grixis Control has seen multiple Top 8s over the past year. Some of them fairly recently even. Saying Cruel Ultimatum hasn't seen competitive play since Lorwyn is completely false.
Destructive Force won't win you the game? How does someone play off of two lands at most on turn eight? Answer: they don't. They lose, because they can't do anything. Especially when you still have all your sources.
I disagree with the statement that casting Destructive Force is a narrow strategy. It essentially sends your opponent into a turn-two play position chances are they'll be completely unable to recover from. It also doesn't lead you to play mediocre cards. An archetype uses the cards it has to use in order to win.
You're not really providing any sort of basis for your criticism of the archetype. And Destructive Force is still not a 9-drop.
Since I left for work about 12 hours ago, there's been over 40 posts in this thread. That just blew my mind.
To address some issues raised:
I agree that Dreamstone Hedron is just out of place. I'm not even sure if I'd run a Singleton of it since DF is just 1 mana more. At that CMC you should be dropping a Titan or a planeswalker, or clearing the board. I can only really see this card being helpful in a deck utilizing Eldrazi and I don't see that happening in a deck running DF. Yes, I believe I was the original advocator of it, but there is better options at that cost.
[CARD]
Roiling Terrain
[/CARD] is a difficult card for me to empliment. I believe I'd only utilize it in conjunction with a playset of Tectonic Edge. Even then I'd question it's usefulness. The only good thing I see in this card is that it can redirect damage to a planeswalker. if I'm looking for a 4 cmc card to do 6-8 damage, I'll just use Lord of Shatterskull Pass. I quite honestly would rather play Goblin Ruinblaster, at least at long as there are a plethora of tri-colored decks. He is a more reliable source of damage, can chump block, and more often than not will retain the effect that Roiling Terrain attempts to implement. How many times would a person rather hit a basic land than an M10 dual, a Shards tri-land or a manland? My guess is next to none. The way I see it: Roiling Terrain is cool, but Goblin Ruinblaster is practical.
The more and more I play magic, the more I realize how powerful 187-creatures are. A creature that has an identical effect to an instant or sorcery will 9 out of 10 times be more powerful.
The issue of dealing with counter spells is something that must be addressed, but I just hope everyone knows that whatever color you splash has an answer to counterspells. I'll show you:
White- Silence. Not only is it a strong proactive defense for DF, it can also buy a turn to get to a DF, build loyalty counters, or to keep your opponent from sorcery speed removal when your bomb is setting the clock in motion.
Blue- Mana Leak, Dispel, Negate, Spell Pierce. I pick these for two reasons: they are cheap and the only require one blue. Sure you could hope to deprive someone or use cancel as protection. But 8 mana hard enough, let alone 9 or 10.
Green- Autumn's Veil. If I read this card right, it acts as a green counterspell to any counterspells that are already on the stack. Since on the resolution of this spell nothing of yours could be countered, meaning all of your opponents counters would be countered on resoultion?? I think??
As long as the build isn't mono-red, then there are tools available to deal with the blue decks the will most certainly show up in force.
@Chalmus post #84 (the following is meant with absolute respect, with no derrogatory or degrading intentions)--Your theoretical arguments make sense. But I just think there are a few things that need to be addressed.
1. I haven't seen a build of a green spash that will have 4 artifact mana and 6 lands out turn 5. To be honest, that is a nut hand. Turboland doesn't get that kind of mana that quickly, and I believe it'd take a large amount of spots dedicated to ramp, and being lucky enough to draw them in the right order to get an average 2 mana resources a turn. I'm not saying it's impossible, but I don't think it is good for a hypothetical argument. Something more reasonable is 7-8 on turn 5 with 1-2 artifact mana.
2. Controlish builds are capable of throwing down a DF on turn 5-6. I just believe these builds are a half a turn to a full turn slower goldfishing a DF. (probably averaging somewhere around turn 5.75 and turn 6.5 as opposed to turn 4.75 to 5.5). I just enjoy the security of a Condemn rather than a Cultivate, the utility of an Ajani to the speed of Rampant Growth or Explore. I just prefer my acceration to not be hit by DF. I'll give up 3-4 lands knowing that I'll probably have 3-5 mana post Force.
Is green a viable splash? I think so. I just think people are using the wrong cards. There should be a playset of Garruk in every green version. He alone can ensure a turn 5 DF. Plus, after DF your opponent wont have any lands and you can be spamming 3/3 beast tokens. Are there other quality green cards? Probably. I just haven't taken the time to look for them. But land ramp is counter-intuitive if you are aimly to DF prior as early as turn 5 or 6.
@Sniperfan--DF is a powerful card. Although we don't currently have the tools to construct a tier 1 deck around this theme, I believe we can tune and tweak a deck that will have some level of competative competency. I value your opinion that attempting to streamline a deck at this time may lead to the inclusion of rather remedial cards, but could you be more specific about which cards are lackluster in your eyes? I believe some constructive criticism could only help the progression of this deck.
For now, I'm out, but I'll continue to mull over options for this deck in the upcoming few days.
Roiling Terrain
[/CARD] is a difficult card for me to empliment. I believe I'd only utilize it in conjunction with a playset of Tectonic Edge. Even then I'd question it's usefulness. The only good thing I see in this card is that it can redirect damage to a planeswalker. if I'm looking for a 4 cmc card to do 6-8 damage, I'll just use Lord of Shatterskull Pass. I quite honestly would rather play Goblin Ruinblaster, at least at long as there are a plethora of tri-colored decks. He is a more reliable source of damage, can chump block, and more often than not will retain the effect that Roiling Terrain attempts to implement. How many times would a person rather hit a basic land than an M10 dual, a Shards tri-land or a manland? My guess is next to none. The way I see it: Roiling Terrain is cool, but Goblin Ruinblaster is practical.
I've been thinking a lot about this today as well. The biggest change I'm considering making to the deck is the removal of the emphasis on the Roiling Terrain package and focusing on the planeswalkers. Perhaps splashing White and bringing in Ajani Vengeant and Gideon Jura. I'm going to keep playing around with it.
What? Grixis Control has seen multiple Top 8s over the past year. Some of them fairly recently even. Saying Cruel Ultimatum hasn't seen competitive play since Lorwyn is completely false.
Destructive Force won't win you the game? How does someone play off of two lands at most on turn eight? Answer: they don't. They lose, because they can't do anything. Especially when you still have all your sources.
I disagree with the statement that casting Destructive Force is a narrow strategy. It essentially sends your opponent into a turn-two play position chances are they'll be completely unable to recover from. It also doesn't lead you to play mediocre cards. An archetype uses the cards it has to use in order to win.
You're not really providing any sort of basis for your criticism of the archetype. And Destructive Force is still not a 9-drop.
I apologize if i came across as rude or having no basis. Not a forum regular and not a Lawyer, but an Actuary.
The problem I see with the current version (U/R) are the following:
1. Roiling Terrain / Regress come across as weak to me. this is no Eye of Nowhere / Stone Rain. A single mana difference is huge for this type of card. Also, 1-mana accelerants are played in a lot of decks right now, and they pretty much nullify you in this regard. I just don't see 3 mana boomerangs and 4 mana stone rains getting played in this format. You can't expect Roiling Terrain to be your finisher. It's no Magnivore, before or after Destructive Force.
2. Card advantage / Board Position. U/R doesn't have a lot of ways to interact besides burn / Mana Leak. There isn't a 3-drop that interact favorably with the board / opponent. The planeswalkers available (Chandra, Jace, Tezzeret) also lack support and has almost no board impact (in ways that deal with opponent's threats or set up defence) It has been shown that Chandra simply isn't good enough to be played outside of maybe sideboard against UW. The walkers also lack support like Wall of Omens or other defensive walkers. They simply look underwhelming in this deck.
3. Artifact acceleration / mana production. These get clunky quickly. You'll be starved for colored mana trying to cast your double colored spells with basic lands. They also don't help with the board presence / interaction problem. Granted, they're good to have when you resolve Destructive Force, but wouldn't a couple of Raging Ravines and some more lands be just as well / if not better?
4. Flow. Besides Jace, the Mind Sculptor, I see no way of filtering / finding / drawing more cards. The best way to describe this is ''clunky''. What does the deck do when you don't draw force? I see it fall apart.
All my other points made were responded by you by saying that I thought Force is a 9-drop and that the card is comparable to Cruel Ultimatum. Please consider what I said in that post again and make your point about it.
I loved wildfire and I love the strategy. But...I don't get why this deck idea is so popular.
Dreamstone hedron? Khalni gem? rolling terrain?
Since when has so many bad cards constituted a good deck?(sans combo, and this is no combo deck.)
And if you count it as a combo deck, your combo consists of a single card which costs 7 mana and may not even win you the game?
RDW seems like it will just steamroll this deck.
U/W seems like its an impossible matchup, planeswalkers/permission are this decks worst nightmare.
Jund? Pulse is going to ruin your day...so is blightning...so thrinax, haste dudes, a fast clock...Rough matchup.
Mythic? If they can cast a soverigns and land a conscription its game over. But this one is probably a good matchup if tuned properly(bolts, earthquake, etc.)
Overall...I'm just not feeling it. I have a feeling that Destructive Force is going to be a $.50 rare in a month.
Sorry to pee in everyone's cheerios. I just don't get it.
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Deathj: "vengevine... totally overhyped. Do you guys remember talara's battleon? Remember when it was $15... Same thing with this guy. Hes a $5 mytic AT MOST, quote me on that!"
Most hilariously inaccurate prediction in the history of MTGS. Congratz Deathj!
You don't see three mana boomerangs and 4 mana stone rains as being relevant in this format?
Jund often plays three tap lands in a row. Bouncing their tap lands and blowing up their trilands is pretty relevant. If they don't resolve bloodbraid elf, or get 5 mana to play siege gang commander it's going to mess with their game pretty substantially. It's why ajani vengeant is so good against them. They often timewalk for you by playing so many CIPT lands, and when you keep their CIPT land tapped, and they play one the next turn you are staving off their card engine by keeping them away from their cascade cards.
You don't see three mana boomerangs and 4 mana stone rains as being relevant in this format?
...
There are more powerful effects for those mana costs. Oblivion Ring? Jace the Mind Sculptor? Not to mention the format being ridden with inexpensive counterspells and cheap accelerants like Lotus Cobra and Noble Hierarch. It's just not cost effective.
My R/W build is looking more and more like boros control. Here's what I'm looking at
This post more or less confirms my suspicions that the archetype functions best with the control element as opposed to the ramp element. It's more like Grixis Control in that it doesn't try to race to Destructive Force/Cruel Ultimatum.
As far as Dreamstone Hedron is concerned; did you find you were drawing into it too often? If so, how often?
I dont know i would say it "doesn't" race to DF. You are definately trying to get a DF ASAP to get the board in a favorable state. Most decks outside of the mirror and turboland are HURTING come turn 5-6 DF, and thats exactly what you need to go in for the KO. However, as it stands, we have a severe lack of signets/ect in standard, making the golden turn 5 DF play unrealistic.
Throwing cogs in the wheels is my best solution to any deck that shrugs off the mass burn, or uses PWs of their own. Jace, mana leak, and negate all fit this bill nicely, and since we have access to both arid mesa AND scalding tarn, there is no excuse not to splash. Not to mention khalni gem makes COLORS!
As for hedron, I ran three in my build. I saw it a fair amount of the time (not always), but i never found myself either able or wanting to play it. Sure, drawing 3 is good, 3 colorless is good but i just found it...overkill. If, post summons, i had access to 5-6 mana (gem, key, single kicked chalice, land land), i had MORE then enough to do whatever finisher i fancied. Having access to 3 more colorless almost always proved irrelivant, so in my hand it sat. I'm contemplating the addition of a 4th Gem, since i found that the more desirable topdeck. Also, don't doubt the power of the key. It has proven vital in nearly every match I played. Untapping a crystal and digging through 2 more lands is priceless. Producing 3 colored mana out of a key and a gem is also very nice, and not to mention multi kicked chalices. Its such a versatile card, it requires at least a 3-4 spots in the list.
To all of you playing creatures with less then 6 power... please, don't. The power of this deck is its lack of giving a ☺☺☺☺ about DF. Realistically, all this deck needs to win is one good PW/titan/LoSKP swinging away post wipe.
Just a quick but important update: I've decided to do away with the Roiling Terrain package in the default deck list. The archetype description does not yet reflect the shift in the archetype's focus, but it will in the coming days. I've opted to move the deck farther in a control-centric direction.
Note the main deck inclusion of All Is Dust. A couple people have suggested it and I think it's a great move towards dealing with our problem threats (planeswalkers, et cetera). Also note the main deck removal of Dreamstone Hedron. I have to agree with doobieboy3 on this one. It's too expensive and, to be honest, just seems like overkill. Tezzeret the Seeker and the return of main deck Voltaic Key pretty much guarantee a strong artifact-based mana base post-Destructive Force.
Bear in mind that Destructive Force is a 7-drop. Not a 9-drop. It isn't going to be played on turn nine. That puts it on par with Cruel Ultimatum, which has been played successfully without ramp for over a year and continues to be played.
But Cruel Ultimatum is waaaaaaaaaaaaaay to different, it not a symmetric card AT ALL. And it hasn't seen play in a while. The main idea is that, while we are trying to reanimate a dead from the past, the worst thing to do is to look for subsitute card (like trying to fit mana artifacts), so far we had had 2 decks with wildfire that are completely different, so I think a third one (with a ramp Naya or BUG Ramp) will be the best option. I will report the next week with list and everything how did this perform in our first M11 T2 tournament
I've been thinking more about this deck, and I'm still firmly in the side of RG ramp/destroy. But, now I've also thought through some ideas, and I've come up with some conclusions:
- RG is definately best if the ramp comes at the right time in the right order - too situational
- RU is too weak in the late game for me - stalling to T7 and blowing up lands (with counterspell open) is too slow for many decks - jund, naya, RDW, conscription will all have you by then
- Roiling terrain is good, but ruinblaster is better.
With those premises, I propose this idea: RG semi-ramp w/ main LD package. LD in the form of Ruinblasters and our 7 mana bomb, possibly with 1 roiling terrain to make 9, but with the scry ability of crystal ball, it will probably only be necessary to play 8.
Also, some tech ideas - Umbras! They protect out guys, help cast multiple things per turn (bear umbra), draw cards (snake umbra), and most importantly let the thing live through a mass-destroy spell.
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Ok so you're all probably gonna either shout this down or politely inform me why it dosen't work (depending on your personalities), but i Like it. I've playtested it with proxies last night against two friends and so far it did ok, going 2-3 against U/W Ally (a deck that wins FNM regulary), and 4-0 against Mono White Control.
So..what do you think? I'm liking the Black Splash, Phylactery Lich is a powerhouse and Inquisition help off the counters ok...could have been better.
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I have been following this thread for a couple of days. It seems a lot of people are against Dreamstone Hedron. I understand that it's a 6-drop and that's quite expensive for a mana source. However, think about it this way:
For starters, it turns all of your Voltaic Keys into Sol Rings. So you're getting more than just 3 mana by putting a Hedron on the table. If you plan on blowing up a majority of your lands with a Destructive Force, it's nice to have a lot of mana coming from artifacts. In the face of Maelstrom Pulses and Oblivion Rings, your Khalni Gems and Everflowing Chalices aren't always going to survive to the point where you want to DF with a couple artifacts on the table. I like 3-4 Dreamstone Hedrons in this deck because it gives you 'backup' artifact mana to play out when you're trying to stick artifacts against artifact removal.
Another aspect that should be considered is the fact that it draws you 3 cards. You can combine Dreamstone Hedron with Voltaic Key and one other mana to draw 3 cards by tapping the Hedron for mana, untapping it, and then sacking it for 3 cards. That's a pretty good way to dig for a very small number of resources, when you're overloaded with mana. In this way, Dreamstone Hedron allows your deck to function more like a combo deck: you use it to ramp lots of mana and play out your whole hand quickly, then you blow it up to dig for more gas.
So please, think some more about Dreamstone Hedron. There is more to it than meets the eye.
On another note, I also see a relative lack of Inferno Titans in many of the decklists and much of the discussion in this thread. I say 'relative' specifically because I think there should automatically be 4 Inferno Titans in any deck that uses Mountains and has the ability to cast 6-drops. It's absolutely fantastic in a vacuum, both as a quick finisher and as a way of cleaning up the board. And beyond that, it lives through Destructive Force! It seems like an equivalent Covetous Dragon...though honestly the Titan might be better than Covetous Dragon. So I must ask: Why on Earth aren't there more Inferno Titans in this thread?
Ok so you're all probably gonna either shout this down or politely inform me why it dosen't work (depending on your personalities), but i Like it. I've playtested it with proxies last night against two friends and so far it did ok, going 2-3 against U/W Ally (a deck that wins FNM regulary), and 4-0 against Mono White Control.
You're setting yourself up for failure by telling us that you tested against UW Allies and Mono White Control. If your deck posted strong results against popular Tier 1 tournaments, then the information would be to your credit. It also goes without saying that we assume you like a decklist you designed and decided to post on an internet forum for critiquing. You shouldn't be using 'I like it' as an argument for us to favor your list. A better explanation would be to tell us why you chose to play or not to play certain cards. For example, where are your Dragonskull Summits?
I do really like 2 Crystal Balls in the Neo-Wildfire archetype, though. I completely agree with you on that one.
I mention that i tested against those two decks because they were the only two friends available to hang out last night. I know they're not Tier 1 decks, but the Ally deck routinely goes top 4 of our FNM, which includes two UWR Planeswalkers, a Jund, a Mythic Conscription, and a Brilliant Control every week. Not the best decks to test against but at least the ally deck is good.
You may be right about Dreamstone Hedron i haven't faced much artifact hate yet...
The Crystal ball has been exemplary, but the Sign in Blood is an all star for card advantage when combined with it.
Another point i forgot to make before: At the beginning of this thread we talked about the deck benefits from mana sinks (cards that can use theobscene amounts of mana we make). That's why I've got so many Earthquake and comet storm but it's also another point for B/R, Lavaclaw Reaches is a mana sink! He usually dies when I DF but w/e, he's a good draw post DF (way better than a normal land) and at times ive had him swing for 8!
That's all.
EDIT: In pesonse to Id who posted while i was typing: I haven't found it to be a problem yet, one Khalni Gem plus a Voltaic Key can make him happen. Although i will admit he rarley drops Turn 3.
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Here's my current UR build. I decided to include a MD Burst Lightning. It's enormously useful. It can get rid of all of conscriptions' early plays and helps the first match against RDW. I'm still using Regress because it's good against consripted cobras, planeswalkers and keeps Jund of 4+ lands before DF. If there is any card I would remoe though, it'd probably be that. Maybe for some Chain Reaction? Also am thinking to probably remove the keys for 1 more Burst and 1 more All Is Dust. Is there anything MB than can help against the Jund match-up? It's not terrible right now, but a nice MD all around good card would be nice. Thoughts?
Regress? Roiling Terrain? Khalni Gem? I understand maybe you guys want to revive U/R Magnivore, but the card pool right now simply can't support it. Baring any matchup where Mono-Red is involved, Standard right now is a big war of board presence. And it rightly should be, as the most powerful cards in the format revolves around that mechanic (Bloodbraid Elf, Noble Hierarch, Vengevine, Elspeth, Wall of Omens... you see the idea.
When you play Wildfire after playing Izzet Signet and Annex / Confiscate, you expect to not win right away, but recover much better than the opponent and win subsequently. Destructive Force cost 7RR and make each player sacrifice 5 lands. The difference is important. The card available to us is much slower, and harder to abuse. I hope you can see the difference. Also, back in the days, you expect to face Zoo, RG aggro and BW Hand in Hand. Wildfire against these aggro decks tend to be equal or most likely 1-up for you in term of cards even if you get crippled. That was why the strategy was successful. Now we look across the table and see Bloodbraid Elf, Vengevine, Elspeth, and Sprouting Thrinax. The same strategy can't be applied anymore and needs to be evolved.
All i'm saying is, we need to play cards that interact favorable or equally with the best cards in the format (AKA good cards). If you take a look at my list, any of the cards are respectable and played in one archtype or another. They also work great together ( which is the point about making a deck, not that I disagree with all the other choices, they just don't compare to better cards) I'm definitely in favor of the green variant.
Regress is kind an answer to a LOT of things.
PRE DF it keeps your opponent off land and bounces monument so you can DF
AFTER DF it can bounce walkers, pretty much assuring that you won;t see them again, AND it keeps them off land.
Overall, it's very solid so far.
As for All Is Dust, I want to put one more SOMEWHERE. Probably in the SB. It's pretty much our only answer to UWr walkers and indestructible junk.
RADAMARO, FIRST TO DESIRER
UKEFNET THE MINDFULU
GSASAYA, OROCHI ASCENDANTG
MODERN
RMONO-RED ELDRAZIR
Bear in mind that Destructive Force is a 7-drop. Not a 9-drop. It isn't going to be played on turn nine. That puts it on par with Cruel Ultimatum, which has been played successfully without ramp for over a year and continues to be played.
Standard:
:symu::symb::symw:Solar Flare:symw::symb::symu:
Commander:
:symb::symw:Ghost Council of Orzhova:symw::symb:
Linger on death's door and risk being invited in.
Cruel Ultimatum has not seen play since the rotation of Lorwyn Block. BUR Cruel Control is a niche deck that doesn't do well. Also, you talk about not ramping, but you play Dreamstone Hedron and Khalni Gem with Voltaic Key and Tezzeret the Seeker. You're not even ramping to Eldrazis like Mono-White Control is doing with its mana.
Comparing the 2 cards is also a bit off. Cruel, while color intensive, will win you the game 9 out of 10 times, probably 19 out of 20 times you resolve it. Without any other support from other cards. Destructive Force simply take more work.
What I'm trying to say is, a deck made with goal in mind being win on the spot when Destructive Force is cast is unlikely to succeed, because it's a narrow strategy that leads you to play mediocre cards and the card itself isn't of the right material.
What? Grixis Control has seen multiple Top 8s over the past year. Some of them fairly recently even. Saying Cruel Ultimatum hasn't seen competitive play since Lorwyn is completely false.
Destructive Force won't win you the game? How does someone play off of two lands at most on turn eight? Answer: they don't. They lose, because they can't do anything. Especially when you still have all your sources.
I disagree with the statement that casting Destructive Force is a narrow strategy. It essentially sends your opponent into a turn-two play position chances are they'll be completely unable to recover from. It also doesn't lead you to play mediocre cards. An archetype uses the cards it has to use in order to win.
You're not really providing any sort of basis for your criticism of the archetype. And Destructive Force is still not a 9-drop.
Standard:
:symu::symb::symw:Solar Flare:symw::symb::symu:
Commander:
:symb::symw:Ghost Council of Orzhova:symw::symb:
Linger on death's door and risk being invited in.
To address some issues raised:
I agree that Dreamstone Hedron is just out of place. I'm not even sure if I'd run a Singleton of it since DF is just 1 mana more. At that CMC you should be dropping a Titan or a planeswalker, or clearing the board. I can only really see this card being helpful in a deck utilizing Eldrazi and I don't see that happening in a deck running DF. Yes, I believe I was the original advocator of it, but there is better options at that cost.
[CARD]
Roiling Terrain
[/CARD] is a difficult card for me to empliment. I believe I'd only utilize it in conjunction with a playset of Tectonic Edge. Even then I'd question it's usefulness. The only good thing I see in this card is that it can redirect damage to a planeswalker. if I'm looking for a 4 cmc card to do 6-8 damage, I'll just use Lord of Shatterskull Pass. I quite honestly would rather play Goblin Ruinblaster, at least at long as there are a plethora of tri-colored decks. He is a more reliable source of damage, can chump block, and more often than not will retain the effect that Roiling Terrain attempts to implement. How many times would a person rather hit a basic land than an M10 dual, a Shards tri-land or a manland? My guess is next to none. The way I see it: Roiling Terrain is cool, but Goblin Ruinblaster is practical.
The more and more I play magic, the more I realize how powerful 187-creatures are. A creature that has an identical effect to an instant or sorcery will 9 out of 10 times be more powerful.
The issue of dealing with counter spells is something that must be addressed, but I just hope everyone knows that whatever color you splash has an answer to counterspells. I'll show you:
White- Silence. Not only is it a strong proactive defense for DF, it can also buy a turn to get to a DF, build loyalty counters, or to keep your opponent from sorcery speed removal when your bomb is setting the clock in motion.
Blue- Mana Leak, Dispel, Negate, Spell Pierce. I pick these for two reasons: they are cheap and the only require one blue. Sure you could hope to deprive someone or use cancel as protection. But 8 mana hard enough, let alone 9 or 10.
Green- Autumn's Veil. If I read this card right, it acts as a green counterspell to any counterspells that are already on the stack. Since on the resolution of this spell nothing of yours could be countered, meaning all of your opponents counters would be countered on resoultion?? I think??
Black- Inquisition of Kozilek and Duress. Cheap and effective.
As long as the build isn't mono-red, then there are tools available to deal with the blue decks the will most certainly show up in force.
@Chalmus post #84 (the following is meant with absolute respect, with no derrogatory or degrading intentions)--Your theoretical arguments make sense. But I just think there are a few things that need to be addressed.
1. I haven't seen a build of a green spash that will have 4 artifact mana and 6 lands out turn 5. To be honest, that is a nut hand. Turboland doesn't get that kind of mana that quickly, and I believe it'd take a large amount of spots dedicated to ramp, and being lucky enough to draw them in the right order to get an average 2 mana resources a turn. I'm not saying it's impossible, but I don't think it is good for a hypothetical argument. Something more reasonable is 7-8 on turn 5 with 1-2 artifact mana.
2. Controlish builds are capable of throwing down a DF on turn 5-6. I just believe these builds are a half a turn to a full turn slower goldfishing a DF. (probably averaging somewhere around turn 5.75 and turn 6.5 as opposed to turn 4.75 to 5.5). I just enjoy the security of a Condemn rather than a Cultivate, the utility of an Ajani to the speed of Rampant Growth or Explore. I just prefer my acceration to not be hit by DF. I'll give up 3-4 lands knowing that I'll probably have 3-5 mana post Force.
Is green a viable splash? I think so. I just think people are using the wrong cards. There should be a playset of Garruk in every green version. He alone can ensure a turn 5 DF. Plus, after DF your opponent wont have any lands and you can be spamming 3/3 beast tokens. Are there other quality green cards? Probably. I just haven't taken the time to look for them. But land ramp is counter-intuitive if you are aimly to DF prior as early as turn 5 or 6.
@Sniperfan--DF is a powerful card. Although we don't currently have the tools to construct a tier 1 deck around this theme, I believe we can tune and tweak a deck that will have some level of competative competency. I value your opinion that attempting to streamline a deck at this time may lead to the inclusion of rather remedial cards, but could you be more specific about which cards are lackluster in your eyes? I believe some constructive criticism could only help the progression of this deck.
For now, I'm out, but I'll continue to mull over options for this deck in the upcoming few days.
I've been thinking a lot about this today as well. The biggest change I'm considering making to the deck is the removal of the emphasis on the Roiling Terrain package and focusing on the planeswalkers. Perhaps splashing White and bringing in Ajani Vengeant and Gideon Jura. I'm going to keep playing around with it.
Standard:
:symu::symb::symw:Solar Flare:symw::symb::symu:
Commander:
:symb::symw:Ghost Council of Orzhova:symw::symb:
Linger on death's door and risk being invited in.
I apologize if i came across as rude or having no basis. Not a forum regular and not a Lawyer, but an Actuary.
The problem I see with the current version (U/R) are the following:
1. Roiling Terrain / Regress come across as weak to me. this is no Eye of Nowhere / Stone Rain. A single mana difference is huge for this type of card. Also, 1-mana accelerants are played in a lot of decks right now, and they pretty much nullify you in this regard. I just don't see 3 mana boomerangs and 4 mana stone rains getting played in this format. You can't expect Roiling Terrain to be your finisher. It's no Magnivore, before or after Destructive Force.
2. Card advantage / Board Position. U/R doesn't have a lot of ways to interact besides burn / Mana Leak. There isn't a 3-drop that interact favorably with the board / opponent. The planeswalkers available (Chandra, Jace, Tezzeret) also lack support and has almost no board impact (in ways that deal with opponent's threats or set up defence) It has been shown that Chandra simply isn't good enough to be played outside of maybe sideboard against UW. The walkers also lack support like Wall of Omens or other defensive walkers. They simply look underwhelming in this deck.
3. Artifact acceleration / mana production. These get clunky quickly. You'll be starved for colored mana trying to cast your double colored spells with basic lands. They also don't help with the board presence / interaction problem. Granted, they're good to have when you resolve Destructive Force, but wouldn't a couple of Raging Ravines and some more lands be just as well / if not better?
4. Flow. Besides Jace, the Mind Sculptor, I see no way of filtering / finding / drawing more cards. The best way to describe this is ''clunky''. What does the deck do when you don't draw force? I see it fall apart.
All my other points made were responded by you by saying that I thought Force is a 9-drop and that the card is comparable to Cruel Ultimatum. Please consider what I said in that post again and make your point about it.
Dreamstone hedron? Khalni gem? rolling terrain?
Since when has so many bad cards constituted a good deck?(sans combo, and this is no combo deck.)
And if you count it as a combo deck, your combo consists of a single card which costs 7 mana and may not even win you the game?
RDW seems like it will just steamroll this deck.
U/W seems like its an impossible matchup, planeswalkers/permission are this decks worst nightmare.
Jund? Pulse is going to ruin your day...so is blightning...so thrinax, haste dudes, a fast clock...Rough matchup.
Mythic? If they can cast a soverigns and land a conscription its game over. But this one is probably a good matchup if tuned properly(bolts, earthquake, etc.)
Overall...I'm just not feeling it. I have a feeling that Destructive Force is going to be a $.50 rare in a month.
Sorry to pee in everyone's cheerios. I just don't get it.
Most hilariously inaccurate prediction in the history of MTGS. Congratz Deathj!
Jund often plays three tap lands in a row. Bouncing their tap lands and blowing up their trilands is pretty relevant. If they don't resolve bloodbraid elf, or get 5 mana to play siege gang commander it's going to mess with their game pretty substantially. It's why ajani vengeant is so good against them. They often timewalk for you by playing so many CIPT lands, and when you keep their CIPT land tapped, and they play one the next turn you are staving off their card engine by keeping them away from their cascade cards.
4 Mountain
6 Island
7 Plains
4 Glacial Fortress
4 Scalding Tarn
Creatures: 4
4 Wall of Omens
Spells: 31
3 Day of Judgment
4 Destructive Force
4 Everflowing Chalice
2 Gideon Jura
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Khalni Gem
3 Lightning Bolt
4 Mana Leak
2 Oblivion Ring
2 Tezzeret the Seeker
4 Baneslayer Angel
1 Day of Judgment
1 Gideon Jura
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Lightning Bolt
2 Oblivion Ring
4 Silence
1 Tezzeret the Seeker
It's such a shame that Tezzeret the Seeker is rotating out. He's unbelievably good in this deck.
Standard:
:symu::symb::symw:Solar Flare:symw::symb::symu:
Commander:
:symb::symw:Ghost Council of Orzhova:symw::symb:
Linger on death's door and risk being invited in.
There are more powerful effects for those mana costs. Oblivion Ring? Jace the Mind Sculptor? Not to mention the format being ridden with inexpensive counterspells and cheap accelerants like Lotus Cobra and Noble Hierarch. It's just not cost effective.
My R/W build is looking more and more like boros control. Here's what I'm looking at
7 Mountain
3 Tectonic Edge
4 Arid Mesa
1 Evolving Wilds
3 Khanli Gem
3 Crystal Ball
3 Voltaic Key
4 Day of Judgement
3 Destructive Force
3 Chandra Nalaar
3 Gideon Jura
3 Staggershock
3 Oblivion Ring
I dont know i would say it "doesn't" race to DF. You are definately trying to get a DF ASAP to get the board in a favorable state. Most decks outside of the mirror and turboland are HURTING come turn 5-6 DF, and thats exactly what you need to go in for the KO. However, as it stands, we have a severe lack of signets/ect in standard, making the golden turn 5 DF play unrealistic.
Throwing cogs in the wheels is my best solution to any deck that shrugs off the mass burn, or uses PWs of their own. Jace, mana leak, and negate all fit this bill nicely, and since we have access to both arid mesa AND scalding tarn, there is no excuse not to splash. Not to mention khalni gem makes COLORS!
As for hedron, I ran three in my build. I saw it a fair amount of the time (not always), but i never found myself either able or wanting to play it. Sure, drawing 3 is good, 3 colorless is good but i just found it...overkill. If, post summons, i had access to 5-6 mana (gem, key, single kicked chalice, land land), i had MORE then enough to do whatever finisher i fancied. Having access to 3 more colorless almost always proved irrelivant, so in my hand it sat. I'm contemplating the addition of a 4th Gem, since i found that the more desirable topdeck. Also, don't doubt the power of the key. It has proven vital in nearly every match I played. Untapping a crystal and digging through 2 more lands is priceless. Producing 3 colored mana out of a key and a gem is also very nice, and not to mention multi kicked chalices. Its such a versatile card, it requires at least a 3-4 spots in the list.
To all of you playing creatures with less then 6 power... please, don't. The power of this deck is its lack of giving a ☺☺☺☺ about DF. Realistically, all this deck needs to win is one good PW/titan/LoSKP swinging away post wipe.
Currently Playing:
T2 - Nada!
Casual - Sacrifice EngineBR
EDH: - Intet, the Dreamer RUG
Xiahou Dun, the One-Eyed BBB
Brion StoutarmWRW
My decks
Top 4 (4th) SCG IQ 11/4/12
And then turn them into 5/5 beaters after the Destructive Force.
Standard:
:symu::symb::symw:Solar Flare:symw::symb::symu:
Commander:
:symb::symw:Ghost Council of Orzhova:symw::symb:
Linger on death's door and risk being invited in.
Ehhh... a chalice that will NEVER tap for mana? Sounds like a huge waste, outside of his ultimate.
Currently Playing:
T2 - Nada!
Casual - Sacrifice EngineBR
EDH: - Intet, the Dreamer RUG
Xiahou Dun, the One-Eyed BBB
Brion StoutarmWRW
Note the main deck inclusion of All Is Dust. A couple people have suggested it and I think it's a great move towards dealing with our problem threats (planeswalkers, et cetera). Also note the main deck removal of Dreamstone Hedron. I have to agree with doobieboy3 on this one. It's too expensive and, to be honest, just seems like overkill. Tezzeret the Seeker and the return of main deck Voltaic Key pretty much guarantee a strong artifact-based mana base post-Destructive Force.
Standard:
:symu::symb::symw:Solar Flare:symw::symb::symu:
Commander:
:symb::symw:Ghost Council of Orzhova:symw::symb:
Linger on death's door and risk being invited in.
But Cruel Ultimatum is waaaaaaaaaaaaaay to different, it not a symmetric card AT ALL. And it hasn't seen play in a while. The main idea is that, while we are trying to reanimate a dead from the past, the worst thing to do is to look for subsitute card (like trying to fit mana artifacts), so far we had had 2 decks with wildfire that are completely different, so I think a third one (with a ramp Naya or BUG Ramp) will be the best option. I will report the next week with list and everything how did this perform in our first M11 T2 tournament
- RG is definately best if the ramp comes at the right time in the right order - too situational
- RU is too weak in the late game for me - stalling to T7 and blowing up lands (with counterspell open) is too slow for many decks - jund, naya, RDW, conscription will all have you by then
- Roiling terrain is good, but ruinblaster is better.
With those premises, I propose this idea: RG semi-ramp w/ main LD package. LD in the form of Ruinblasters and our 7 mana bomb, possibly with 1 roiling terrain to make 9, but with the scry ability of crystal ball, it will probably only be necessary to play 8.
Also, some tech ideas - Umbras! They protect out guys, help cast multiple things per turn (bear umbra), draw cards (snake umbra), and most importantly let the thing live through a mass-destroy spell.
[CENTER]ITS A TRAP[/CENTER]
[CENTER]----------------------------------------------------------------------------------[/CENTER]
[CENTER]My Sale Thread[/CENTER]
[CENTER]
[CENTER]So many funny sig's, so little space...[/CENTER]
Helps you live, doesn't die from you signature spell.
3 Voltaic Key
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Mana
4 Everflowing Chalice
3 Earthquake
3 Sign in Blood
2 Crystal Ball
3 Mana
4 Veinfire Borderpost
3 Phylactery Lich
2 Comet Storm
4 Khalni Gem
5+ Mana
4 Destructive Force
2 Inferno Titan
2 Grave Titan
Land
4 Lavaclaw Reaches
8 Mountains
6 Swamps
2 Tectonic Edge
3 Fissure Vent
3 Chain Reaction
3 Reverberate
3 Pithing Needle
3 Ricochet Trap
So..what do you think? I'm liking the Black Splash, Phylactery Lich is a powerhouse and Inquisition help off the counters ok...could have been better.
I'm a proud member of the Online Campaign for Real English. If you believe in capital letters, correct spelling, and good sentence structure, then copy this into your signature.
"People with needs have trivial purchasing power while people with purchasing power have trivial needs."
-Steve Randy Waldman, Interfludity
For starters, it turns all of your Voltaic Keys into Sol Rings. So you're getting more than just 3 mana by putting a Hedron on the table. If you plan on blowing up a majority of your lands with a Destructive Force, it's nice to have a lot of mana coming from artifacts. In the face of Maelstrom Pulses and Oblivion Rings, your Khalni Gems and Everflowing Chalices aren't always going to survive to the point where you want to DF with a couple artifacts on the table. I like 3-4 Dreamstone Hedrons in this deck because it gives you 'backup' artifact mana to play out when you're trying to stick artifacts against artifact removal.
Another aspect that should be considered is the fact that it draws you 3 cards. You can combine Dreamstone Hedron with Voltaic Key and one other mana to draw 3 cards by tapping the Hedron for mana, untapping it, and then sacking it for 3 cards. That's a pretty good way to dig for a very small number of resources, when you're overloaded with mana. In this way, Dreamstone Hedron allows your deck to function more like a combo deck: you use it to ramp lots of mana and play out your whole hand quickly, then you blow it up to dig for more gas.
So please, think some more about Dreamstone Hedron. There is more to it than meets the eye.
On another note, I also see a relative lack of Inferno Titans in many of the decklists and much of the discussion in this thread. I say 'relative' specifically because I think there should automatically be 4 Inferno Titans in any deck that uses Mountains and has the ability to cast 6-drops. It's absolutely fantastic in a vacuum, both as a quick finisher and as a way of cleaning up the board. And beyond that, it lives through Destructive Force! It seems like an equivalent Covetous Dragon...though honestly the Titan might be better than Covetous Dragon. So I must ask: Why on Earth aren't there more Inferno Titans in this thread?
You're setting yourself up for failure by telling us that you tested against UW Allies and Mono White Control. If your deck posted strong results against popular Tier 1 tournaments, then the information would be to your credit. It also goes without saying that we assume you like a decklist you designed and decided to post on an internet forum for critiquing. You shouldn't be using 'I like it' as an argument for us to favor your list. A better explanation would be to tell us why you chose to play or not to play certain cards. For example, where are your Dragonskull Summits?
I do really like 2 Crystal Balls in the Neo-Wildfire archetype, though. I completely agree with you on that one.
I mention that i tested against those two decks because they were the only two friends available to hang out last night. I know they're not Tier 1 decks, but the Ally deck routinely goes top 4 of our FNM, which includes two UWR Planeswalkers, a Jund, a Mythic Conscription, and a Brilliant Control every week. Not the best decks to test against but at least the ally deck is good.
You may be right about Dreamstone Hedron i haven't faced much artifact hate yet...
The Crystal ball has been exemplary, but the Sign in Blood is an all star for card advantage when combined with it.
Another point i forgot to make before: At the beginning of this thread we talked about the deck benefits from mana sinks (cards that can use theobscene amounts of mana we make). That's why I've got so many Earthquake and comet storm but it's also another point for B/R, Lavaclaw Reaches is a mana sink! He usually dies when I DF but w/e, he's a good draw post DF (way better than a normal land) and at times ive had him swing for 8!
That's all.
EDIT: In pesonse to Id who posted while i was typing: I haven't found it to be a problem yet, one Khalni Gem plus a Voltaic Key can make him happen. Although i will admit he rarley drops Turn 3.
I'm a proud member of the Online Campaign for Real English. If you believe in capital letters, correct spelling, and good sentence structure, then copy this into your signature.
"People with needs have trivial purchasing power while people with purchasing power have trivial needs."
-Steve Randy Waldman, Interfludity
2 Dread Statuary
2 Crumbling Necropolis
2 Scalding Tarn
10 Mountain
8 Island
Walkers (6)
2 Chandra Nalaar
2 Jace, The Mind Sculptor
2 Tezzeret The Seeker
Spells (29)
4 Everflowing Chalice
4 Mana Leak
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Destructive Force
3 Burst Lightning
3 Regress
3 Khalni Gem
2 Comet Storm
2 Voltaic Key
1 All Is Dust
1 All Is Dust
2 Pithing Needle
2 Redirect
3 Demolish
3 Chain Reaction
4 Negate
RADAMARO, FIRST TO DESIRER
UKEFNET THE MINDFULU
GSASAYA, OROCHI ASCENDANTG
MODERN
RMONO-RED ELDRAZIR