No love for Howling Mine? I know we don't want aggro decks to draw fuel, but we would be drawing mill and control also. Jace is better, no doubt, but Howling Mine comes down a turn earlier.
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About Mindslaver rulings:
Quote from ebcubs03 »
so if i am that player do i get to sleep with his girlfriend ?
I added Ponder, Esper charms and Angel songs and my matchs have been much much better. Sitting with multiple fogs or Day of judgements while waiting for the final mill defiantly helps.
I like this deck, but I don't like the Haunting Echoes, nor the Crab... both are too slow. I'd prefer a more controlling version (Negate/Essence Scatter/Wall of Denial MD) with a transitional SB, and believe it would be much more successful.
Best of Luck with testing...
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Amazing Avy & Sig by mchief111 @ Rising Studios [4/22/11]
I'll post all my decklists tomorrow, after another tests but i think that esper mill is the best atm. Testd it whole day, and finishd with ~70/5/10. This deck can be very very very dangerous against all decks no matter aggro or control. T1 Hedron Crab make ppl cry
I would personally run angle song as a 4 of as well as jace he not only is the best card draw available right now hes is mill if you get him pumped. As for the question of an example of a deck that does not care if your milling them on turn 5 (assuming everything works out and that happens)
Bant aggro
T1 forest noble
T2 Island Rhox war monk
T3 Land rafiq swing with doble striking 5/6 with lifelink
T4 whatever you want cause you dead unless damage is prevented
So ya plus i have found that bant can run a t4-7 win far more often than a mill deck can pull a t4-7 mill
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Originally Posted by badjuju
As the Last of the Control Players, we are all part of a sacred brotherhood; a band of brothers who would rather die on their knees tapping islands and giving permission than live on our feet cascading into Blightning.
I would personally run angle song as a 4 of as well as jace he not only is the best card draw available right now hes is mill if you get him pumped. As for the question of an example of a deck that does not care if your milling them on turn 5 (assuming everything works out and that happens)
Bant aggro
T1 forest noble
T2 Island Rhox war monk
T3 Land rafiq swing with doble striking 5/6 with lifelink
T4 whatever you want cause you dead unless damage is prevented
So ya plus i have found that bant can run a t4-7 win far more often than a mill deck can pull a t4-7 mill
Wow way to spam this forum with Bant nonsense, Im sorry but there is enough removal to shut bant down.
I've been playing a few games with this and it's a pretty effective deck.
I am considering taking out Haunting Echoes though as I've usually milled them by the time I could use it/ draw it (only running 2).
I'm loving the Crabs though, I can usually get 2 up pretty early and then with an early fetch they can take out about 15 cards before they have to chump block something big or I wipe the board.
I find that in the second or third game I end up hard casting the Archive Traps as my opponents stop using fetches and searching for lands after a Path which is a win/ win situation really.
Thats why i prefer to side out 2 of them and side in 2 Mindbreak Traps/Whiplash Traps 'cos with Trapmaker's Snare md i can fetch them easily.
Howlings are terribad, ponder+jace+fetch lands speculation are godlike.
Wow way to spam this forum with Bant nonsense, Im sorry but there is enough removal to shut bant down.
you wanted an example of how a good aggro decks runs and their it was. You can't realistically mill you opponent before 7th turn every game. I hate to say this because we all use mws for playtesting, but sometimes you better just using the "fish" engine to testout your mana base/card #'s. I agree that esper mill is the best and all of the additions to the deck have been for the good, although the crab hardly seems good.
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1-Copy effects
2-Control changing effects
3-Text changing effects
4-Type changing effects
5-Color changing effects
6-Giving/Taking Abilities
7a-*/* setting effects
7b-All effects not described in other layer 6 effects
7c-Counters
7d-Static abilities that don't set P/T (Crusade effects)
7e-Switching P/T
I would personally run angle song as a 4 of as well as jace he not only is the best card draw available right now hes is mill if you get him pumped. As for the question of an example of a deck that does not care if your milling them on turn 5 (assuming everything works out and that happens)
Bant aggro
T1 forest noble
T2 Island Rhox war monk
T3 Land rafiq swing with doble striking 5/6 with lifelink
T4 whatever you want cause you dead unless damage is prevented
So ya plus i have found that bant can run a t4-7 win far more often than a mill deck can pull a t4-7 mill
um....u also cant always get that hand in bant...u just listed an ideal situation for bant, that doesnt mean u can beat this deck consistently......and you can generally mill your opp completely or quite a bit by turn 7......or, just have control of the game by turn 7......well placed path to exile mess up bant's game.....also, I feel bant over extends a bit when trying to when that early, and will just run into a day of judgement
I really like your deck idea. I considered something myself but I wasn't used to standard, coming back from a long break, Fifth Dawn being a sad note to leave on.
I like the idea of ths deck. I was considering a Green varient of the deck, Harrow and the like would do the deck wonders with the crab, considering the crab with harrow is 9 cards if you played a land that turn. The Lotus cobra is something was was considering just becuase you can drop an absurd about of mana in a turn from rampant growth and harrows. Lotus cobra would essentially make rampant growth a free spell, play a land the turn after you play the snake 1 mana play growth which gets another land into play tap but you still have three mana. Harrow nets a +1 mana advantage, four mana turn three earliest.
The thing is I would hope for beats with the rampaging Baloths probably coming in soon but I like the build of the UBW so I don't know if the accel for a UWG would work better.
What I'm trying to say I think is I love the deck but I want to add green,lol
I really like your deck idea. I considered something myself but I wasn't used to standard, coming back from a long break, Fifth Dawn being a sad note to leave on.
I like the idea of ths deck. I was considering a Green varient of the deck, Harrow and the like would do the deck wonders with the crab, considering the crab with harrow is 9 cards if you played a land that turn. The Lotus cobra is something was was considering just becuase you can drop an absurd about of mana in a turn from rampant growth and harrows. Lotus cobra would essentially make rampant growth a free spell, play a land the turn after you play the snake 1 mana play growth which gets another land into play tap but you still have three mana. Harrow nets a +1 mana advantage, four mana turn three earliest.
The thing is I would hope for beats with the rampaging Baloths probably coming in soon but I like the build of the UBW so I don't know if the accel for a UWG would work better.
What I'm trying to say I think is I love the deck but I want to add green,lol
Esper mill have 4-6 black cards md - 2 Huntings, 4 Mind Funerals, 2 Doomblade/Charms, and 6-8 white cards - 4 pte,
2/4 Angelsongs/Wraths. And Esper charms are extremely good agianst ascensions, especaly Pyromancer Ascension.
Green will give you 4 Harrows and 3-4Cobras/Expeditions and?
Actually every deck can kill Crabs BUT red decks prefer to save their Lightning bolts and throw their in my head instead,
whites don't want to give me t1 additional land so a single crab can mill 6-9 cards before death and its great just for U.
If you remove black you will loose best mill cards and spot removal. And green only will push opponents to kill crabs in response to your Harrows.
Anyway tests will show who is right. Make your UGW mill, play ~70 games and post your results.
I finished with 7 or 8 losts ot 86 games, lost three times in a row testing howling mines.:p
I would personally run angle song as a 4 of as well as jace he not only is the best card draw available right now hes is mill if you get him pumped. As for the question of an example of a deck that does not care if your milling them on turn 5 (assuming everything works out and that happens)
Bant aggro
T1 forest noble
T2 Island Rhox war monk
T3 Land rafiq swing with doble striking 5/6 with lifelink
T4 whatever you want cause you dead unless damage is prevented
So ya plus i have found that bant can run a t4-7 win far more often than a mill deck can pull a t4-7 mill
ok since you want to talk about god hands, on the mill deck's turn one i will path to exile you noble then drop all 4 archive traps on you. arnt good hands amazing.
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decks im working on
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Thanks to Numotflame96 at Maelstrom Graphics for the sig
Esper mill have 4-6 black cards md - 2 Huntings, 4 Mind Funerals, 2 Doomblade/Charms, and 6-8 white cards - 4 pte,
2/4 Angelsongs/Wraths. And Esper charms are extremely good agianst ascensions, especaly Pyromancer Ascension.
Green will give you 4 Harrows and 3-4Cobras/Expeditions and?
Actually every deck can kill Crabs BUT red decks prefer to save their Lightning bolts and throw their in my head instead,
whites don't want to give me t1 additional land so a single crab can mill 6-9 cards before death and its great just for U.
If you remove black you will loose best mill cards and spot removal. And green only will push opponents to kill crabs in response to your Harrows.
Anyway tests will show who is right. Make your UGW mill, play ~70 games and post your results.
I finished with 7 or 8 losts ot 86 games, lost three times in a row testing howling mines.:p
I see your point but the thing was I was also looking at the possibility of having mill as a 2nd win condition but yeah I'll try and make it and I'm pretty sure you are right on this.
Jace sb against control would be nice? Journey to nowhere might be better than doomblade also (they wont have any anti-enchant pos-sb anyway). Luminarch ascension sb against control might be another good idea.
Esper Charm is super good. Having played U/B/W mill deck in Lorwyn-Alara-M10. Trust me that you rather cast Esper Charm than use Mind Funeral on turn 3.
He is so man, he is mario, and I will tell my opponents such. As and when I bounce their permanent I will exclaim "MARIO" as though he were stomped on by our mighty Jace. Every time someone kill him I will give them 99 USD (not AUS!!!) because their lightning bolt should cost 100 DOLLARS...
Jace even made it into the Teenage Super Hero Mutant Ninja Hero Turtles.
WALL OF DENIAL must card in this deck.Stop any agro deck.
Can block very big guys, like angels, dragons etc.Give time to finish opponent with Archive Trap+Twincast or Haunting Echoes.
Against tokens or many small creatures Day of Judgment in sb, and Lethargy Trap.
I like tarp cards you can use 1 in deck and tutor it on instant speed with Trapmaker's Snare then you need it.Maby add some traps in SB\MD later.
Howling Mine+Jace give you 2-3 cards in turn and "mill" opponent.
Only problem direct damage but 4 lighting bolt cant't kill you))
WALL OF DENIAL must card in this deck.Stop any agro deck.
Can block very big guys, like angels, dragons etc.Give time to finish opponent with Archive Trap+Twincast or Haunting Echoes.
Against tokens or many small creatures Day of Judgment in sb, and Lethargy Trap.
I like tarp cards you can use 1 in deck and tutor it on instant speed with Trapmaker's Snare then you need it.Maby add some traps in SB\MD later.
Howling Mine+Jace give you 2-3 cards in turn and "mill" opponent.
Only problem direct damage but 4 lighting bolt cant't kill you))
This is my favourite Mill build I've seen thus far. However, I personally would go:
-1 Twincast
+1 Jace
-4 Trapmaker's Snare
+4 Tome Scour
it might not matter that much since Echoes is probably one of the last spells you have to cast before winning. however, it could be problematic under certain circumstances. is it possible that basic Tome Scour just better than Mind Funeral because of this?
also, has anybody thought about using Traumatize as a supplement to Archive Trap as additional "big mill" spells?
it might not matter that much since Echoes is probably one of the last spells you have to cast before winning. however, it could be problematic under certain circumstances. is it possible that basic Tome Scour just better than Mind Funeral because of this?
also, has anybody thought about using Traumatize as a supplement to Archive Trap as additional "big mill" spells?
Mind Funeral has anti synergy how with Haunting Echoes? and Tome scour can and will always hit for 5 where I have had mind funeral easily hit 5 to 17 avg of 8. Traumitize is to costly and is just overkill. Id rather run more removal over that.
Haunting Echoes tends to greatly increase the proportion of basic land in their deck, which would seriously cut into the potential effectiveness of Mind Funeral.
its probably not a big enough concern to be worth worrying about, just something that crossed my mind. basically im sort of imagining these awkward end-of-game situations where you've got them down to like 6 cards left in the library but they kill you the turn before they get decked. just trying to think of ways to avoid that.
Haunting Echoes tends to greatly increase the proportion of basic land in their deck, which would seriously cut into the potential effectiveness of Mind Funeral.
its probably not a big enough concern to be worth worrying about, just something that crossed my mind. basically im sort of imagining these awkward end-of-game situations where you've got them down to like 6 cards left in the library but they kill you the turn before they get decked. just trying to think of ways to avoid that.
you usually have enough removal.fog to get around and could mill them again.
About Mindslaver rulings:
4 Glen Elandra Archmage
4 Mulldrifter
4 Shriekmaw
4 Cryptic Command
4 Makeshift Mannequin
4 Soul Manipulation
2 Ponder
3 Haunting Echoes
3 Telemin Performance
4 U/B M10
4 Sunken Ruin
3 Infest
3 Flashfreeze/Agony Warp
2 Fleshbag Maurader
4 Sower of Temptation
2 Thoughseize
1 Pithing Needle
I based this deck on Esper-Mannequin, just added in milling as a side-effect. Please see if this helps, and any suggestions are welcome.
About Mindslaver rulings:
Thanks to Rising Studios!
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Best of Luck with testing...
MWS IGN Bacur, welcome
Bant aggro
T1 forest noble
T2 Island Rhox war monk
T3 Land rafiq swing with doble striking 5/6 with lifelink
T4 whatever you want cause you dead unless damage is prevented
So ya plus i have found that bant can run a t4-7 win far more often than a mill deck can pull a t4-7 mill
Wow way to spam this forum with Bant nonsense, Im sorry but there is enough removal to shut bant down.
Thanks to Rising Studios!
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My Trade Thread: http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=179137
"Wizards could put $100 bills in packs and people would complain about how they were folded."
In Memory of Dr. Jeebus. Banned, but not forgotten.
Thats why i prefer to side out 2 of them and side in 2 Mindbreak Traps/Whiplash Traps 'cos with Trapmaker's Snare md i can fetch them easily.
Howlings are terribad, ponder+jace+fetch lands speculation are godlike.
you wanted an example of how a good aggro decks runs and their it was. You can't realistically mill you opponent before 7th turn every game. I hate to say this because we all use mws for playtesting, but sometimes you better just using the "fish" engine to testout your mana base/card #'s. I agree that esper mill is the best and all of the additions to the deck have been for the good, although the crab hardly seems good.
2-Control changing effects
3-Text changing effects
4-Type changing effects
5-Color changing effects
6-Giving/Taking Abilities
7a-*/* setting effects
7b-All effects not described in other layer 6 effects
7c-Counters
7d-Static abilities that don't set P/T (Crusade effects)
7e-Switching P/T
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um....u also cant always get that hand in bant...u just listed an ideal situation for bant, that doesnt mean u can beat this deck consistently......and you can generally mill your opp completely or quite a bit by turn 7......or, just have control of the game by turn 7......well placed path to exile mess up bant's game.....also, I feel bant over extends a bit when trying to when that early, and will just run into a day of judgement
I like the idea of ths deck. I was considering a Green varient of the deck, Harrow and the like would do the deck wonders with the crab, considering the crab with harrow is 9 cards if you played a land that turn. The Lotus cobra is something was was considering just becuase you can drop an absurd about of mana in a turn from rampant growth and harrows. Lotus cobra would essentially make rampant growth a free spell, play a land the turn after you play the snake 1 mana play growth which gets another land into play tap but you still have three mana. Harrow nets a +1 mana advantage, four mana turn three earliest.
The thing is I would hope for beats with the rampaging Baloths probably coming in soon but I like the build of the UBW so I don't know if the accel for a UWG would work better.
What I'm trying to say I think is I love the deck but I want to add green,lol
Esper mill have 4-6 black cards md - 2 Huntings, 4 Mind Funerals, 2 Doomblade/Charms, and 6-8 white cards - 4 pte,
2/4 Angelsongs/Wraths. And Esper charms are extremely good agianst ascensions, especaly Pyromancer Ascension.
Green will give you 4 Harrows and 3-4Cobras/Expeditions and?
Actually every deck can kill Crabs BUT red decks prefer to save their Lightning bolts and throw their in my head instead,
whites don't want to give me t1 additional land so a single crab can mill 6-9 cards before death and its great just for U.
If you remove black you will loose best mill cards and spot removal. And green only will push opponents to kill crabs in response to your Harrows.
Anyway tests will show who is right. Make your UGW mill, play ~70 games and post your results.
I finished with 7 or 8 losts ot 86 games, lost three times in a row testing howling mines.:p
ok since you want to talk about god hands, on the mill deck's turn one i will path to exile you noble then drop all 4 archive traps on you. arnt good hands amazing.
I see your point but the thing was I was also looking at the possibility of having mill as a 2nd win condition but yeah I'll try and make it and I'm pretty sure you are right on this.
jace is good too
7 [M10] Island (4)
2 [M10] Drowned Catacomb
4 [M10] Glacial Fortress
4 [ALA] Arcane Sanctum
4 [ZEN] Marsh Flats
1 [ALA] Swamp (1)
2 [ALA] Plains (4)
// Creatures
4 [ZEN] Hedron Crab
4 [ARB] Wall of Denial
4 [CFX] Path to Exile
4 [M10] Howling Mine
4 [ZEN] Trapmaker's Snare
4 [M10] Twincast
2 [M10] Jace Beleren
4 [ARB] Mind Funeral
4 [ZEN] Archive Trap
2 [M10] Haunting Echoes
WALL OF DENIAL must card in this deck.Stop any agro deck.
Can block very big guys, like angels, dragons etc.Give time to finish opponent with Archive Trap+Twincast or Haunting Echoes.
Against tokens or many small creatures Day of Judgment in sb, and Lethargy Trap.
I like tarp cards you can use 1 in deck and tutor it on instant speed with Trapmaker's Snare then you need it.Maby add some traps in SB\MD later.
Howling Mine+Jace give you 2-3 cards in turn and "mill" opponent.
Only problem direct damage but 4 lighting bolt cant't kill you))
This is my favourite Mill build I've seen thus far. However, I personally would go:
-1 Twincast
+1 Jace
-4 Trapmaker's Snare
+4 Tome Scour
it might not matter that much since Echoes is probably one of the last spells you have to cast before winning. however, it could be problematic under certain circumstances. is it possible that basic Tome Scour just better than Mind Funeral because of this?
also, has anybody thought about using Traumatize as a supplement to Archive Trap as additional "big mill" spells?
Mind Funeral has anti synergy how with Haunting Echoes? and Tome scour can and will always hit for 5 where I have had mind funeral easily hit 5 to 17 avg of 8. Traumitize is to costly and is just overkill. Id rather run more removal over that.
Thanks to Rising Studios!
__________________
My Trade Thread: http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=179137
"Wizards could put $100 bills in packs and people would complain about how they were folded."
In Memory of Dr. Jeebus. Banned, but not forgotten.
its probably not a big enough concern to be worth worrying about, just something that crossed my mind. basically im sort of imagining these awkward end-of-game situations where you've got them down to like 6 cards left in the library but they kill you the turn before they get decked. just trying to think of ways to avoid that.
you usually have enough removal.fog to get around and could mill them again.
Thanks to Rising Studios!
__________________
My Trade Thread: http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=179137
"Wizards could put $100 bills in packs and people would complain about how they were folded."
In Memory of Dr. Jeebus. Banned, but not forgotten.