Building a new deck. Love black. Second deck ever built, just looking for some advice and direction. Generally what I'm looking for in the deck is:
- control/have answers
- ETB to just add to chainers recursion
- multiple win cons
- just an overall strong deck
- proactive /reactive
- slow them down
- punish them
ETB effects on my creatures to just add that additional benefit from chainer. Strong Mana ramp, lots of control, like I said force them to discard cards, have a response, lock them down. Punish their plays.
So here's what I've come up with. The tutors I'll add just didn't know what to replace.
I'm pretty satisfied with the list in my signature. I should get around to updating it, but the core of the deck is pretty much the same. I think you'll find it to your liking.
The one thing I noticed about your list is the lack of card draw. Sure, tutoring for Necro can solve most of your card draw problems but that paints a huge target on your head, so I prefer incremental card draw like Night's Whisper, Sign in Blood, and Read the Bones.
Also, generally speaking, this forum frowns on linking to other websites and most users prefer you to post your list using the deck tags here.
EDIT: I dislike the following:
Blood Artist (I found it underwhelming)
Bloodghast (I don't think you have enough good sac outlets to do much with the recursion)
Sheoldred, Whispering One (controversial opinion here but in my list I found her winmore)
Undercity Informer (in here persumably for self mill, I think there are better ways to accomplish that)
Zulaport Cutthroat (see Blood Artist, though I never actually played this version of this effect)
Elixir of Immortality (saves your graveyard in a pinch but I think it's pretty low impact)
Mindcrank (without the Bloodchief's Ascension combo it seems mediocre)
Beacon of Unrest (mostly redundant with your general, and also mana intensive)
Life's Finale (too mana intensive, try Mutilate or Toxic Deluge instead)
Ruinous Path (a good card, but I dislike sorcery speed spot removal; try Hero's Downfall)
Yahenni's Expertise (eh, seems low impact unless you face a lot of 'go wide' strategies or mana dorks)
Black Market (I found it winmore with all the doublers and other ramp in my deck)
Palace Siege (both modes I find underwhelming, but I never actually tested it)
Phyrexian Reclamation (a fantastic card, no doubt, but redundant with your general; if you want a back up recursion card try Strands of Night)
Tainted Rememdy (unless you face Oloro constantly I don't see this doing much work)
Crypt of Agadeem (I hate ETB tapped lands, and I rarely got more of a 2-3 mana bump from using this at best)
Essence Extraction (low impact unless you fight a lot of low toughness generals)
In their places I would add card draw, the tutors, and some more creatures to get more mileage out of Chainer's ability. Rune-Scarred Demon is an all star, as is Myojin of Night's Reach. Speaking of the Myojin, Mind Sludge and Mind Twist are excellent haymakers against blue decks.
I had a chance to look at your list before I got started. I looked over mrcoupons also and jmdt.
I am fairy confused again only month of magic, but looking at the three of yours. In your thread it seemed like too much mana and single reliant on chainer with mass mana. I read through and you also said it hadn't been played really, has it been played now? Have you changed anything since that post as it was a while ago?
I understand your points though and agree fully, I didn't want to have my board state basically be..
Ok I can't play a creature because everything is a 4-5 drop. Just seemed like having such a high average cmc wouldn't help.
I play against a saskia drsgon deck that will literally swing and burn with great card synergy. Atraxxa with massive counters being placed on creatures double them etc, with few burns and spot removal or creatures removing counters/hangar back /ballista etc. A sram equipment deck again constant draw free play flash play swing n win. A werewolf deck. And a breya Artifact deck with Swords.
I want answers to their win cons, I wanna take the field. I am lucky though, they all need ramp unless they god hand it or sram comes out. I do probably have a grace period of 2-3 turns. Again we don't play 2k decks, sram is most expensive at like 800-900 n he doesn't play it against our group cuz it's strong but we're all working on getting our decks to that point to play all out.
Sorry about the link didn't know, again I appreciate your extensive reply it has given me a lot to look at and reconsider. I look forward to compiling something with what you've said in terms of what I should cut etc.
Again no majoy budget restrictions, not dropping 1k but I'd be fine dropping 500. And I can throw cash at it every other week. I just don't wanna spend 500 for a deck that just doesn't work.
I play a really fun Chainer deck as well (also in my signature). I think GloriousGoose is pretty right on all his points - nothing I'd argue with too much.
My deck in particular is focused on the long game. I want to win by outlasting everyone else. One of the best cards for this is Xiahou Dun, the One-Eyed. Getting access to instants, sorceries and enchantments from your graveyard late in the game can be backbreaking (likewise, Crucible of Worlds for lands, and for artifacts I like Myr Retriever, but this is a pet card).
I also focus on my own graveyard almost exclusively. Since you can't control what other people pack in their deck (thought, you seem to have a good idea, since you play against them often), you want to try and always have an answer in your own yard. Steel Hellkite can answer enchantments and artifacts, there's a million Nekrataal effects, so take your pick there. If you need card draw late game, I prefer Disciple of Bolas or Vulturous Aven.
If you're going to run tutors, I'd really recommend Rune-Scarred Demon and Sidisi, Undead Vizier. I run Demonic Tutor, and it's fine, but it's so much easier to use and reuse the creatures late game than a sorcery, and by then the mana difference is likely negligible anyway. Actually, in general, if you want an effect and there's a creature that can do it (Grave Pact/Butcher of Malakir, for example), you're better off using the creature, since that's kind of Chainer's whole schtick. And, you'll occasionally catch the table by surprise when you bring the creature in at instant speed, instead of having the enchantment sitting on the table for everyone to play around. Not to mention the whole "creatures can hit your opponents in the face, if they don't have blockers" thing.
One thing my group often forgets about my deck is that I can win with commander damage. Bestowing Nighthowler on my commander has won a lot of games when people weren't prepared for it. I'm not recommending it, necessarily, but it's always fun to win that way, for me.
So, my advice is - plan for the long game. The longer the game goes, the better position you're going to be in.
Also, never forget that Chainer is a nightmare lord, and all your creatures will be nightmares. I can't count the number of times I forgot that and robbed myself of incremental damage that would have really helped late game.
With big black mana Geth, Lord of the Vault is great redundancy, and can pick up nasty artifacts, similar to beacon but has the nice ability to be easily recurred.
Also for draw sack Vampiric Rites never have enough sack.
Ohh and keep Life's Finale if you know what your playing against in others decks.
Edit. You have not one single way to deal with Enchantments. Maybe a Disk or two..
I started to type out a long paragraph, but I thought it might be easier to just direct you to the link in my sig.
I'm pretty big on trying to have answers to as many situations as possible. Locked out due to Iona? Pfft.
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If combo should die before I wake I'll slide a Smokestack in every deck I play, roll in every shop wreck the Spirit of EDH.
I'll probably end up repeating some of the cards already mentioned, but I figured I'd talk about some of the cards in my Chainer deck as well as why I'm not using certain common ones. It's one of my strongest decks still, especially with a couple other players running Meren decks that it can wreck. It's also one of my favorites, so please bear with me while I ramble.
My plan A is to be able to win with what I have in my deck, and what other people bring to the table is just a bonus that could make it easier. Sometimes a lot easier. But I want combat damage to be just as viable an option with this deck as leeching life.
I try not to have too many instances of certain effects to avoid repetitive play (still working on this, though). For example, I don't run Kokusho, Gary, or Exsanguinate anymore. I stopped running Gary because I would just loop XHD and Living Death with a sacrifice outlet. I don't run Kokusho for the same reason as Gary. I replaced Exsanguinate with Blood Tithe because half of my games ended with that once I had enough mana, which is boring for me. I prefer to toy with my prey and watch them struggle for their last breath rather than nuke the table. Fortunately, my opponents have more fun even if they lose if they felt they had a chance up until the end. Eventually I realized even Tithe was unnecessary for life gain considering other sources I use.
Also, some of my current choices (which may not appear here) are backups to creature/ETB sources of an effect in case of things like Torpor Orb or Grafdigger's Cage. For example, Strands of Night is a great backup to Chainer, but Phyrexian Reclamation provides a good backup that gets around the Cage and enables better re-use of pieces like Myojin of Night's Reach or eldrazi titans if you run them. Especially if you don't have Yawgmoth's Will.
Sacrifice
I use more sacrifice outlets of various types to deal with the Nightmare thing and to control timing of effects or play around certain types of removal.
Dimir House Guard - Free sac and I have enough good 4-drops that this becomes a good enough tutor.
Altar of Dementia - Alternate win-con. I rarely mill myself, but there are enough big creatures around sometimes (looking at you, Terastodon) that it's feasible.
Spawning Pit - Alternate win-con if I need to win with tokens, though I haven't needed to do that yet.
Phyrexian Altar - Because B. Useful with anything that makes 2 or more tokens on ETB.
Fallen Ideal - Comes back to the hand a lot and grants evasion and pumping.
Infernal Tribute - Not free, but it helps me get rid of something noncreature if it becomes problematic and I'd rather have the card and black devotion than 1 life.
And now for the slower ones (spell / ETB / taps):
Trading Post - Swiss army knife. Discard outlet, minor life gain, artifact recursion, and emergency card draw. An enabler for Spine.
Special mention: Shadows of the Past for scry 1 since there's lots of dying.
Tutors
I try to restrain my use of these to ramp and answers, personally.
Already mentioned: Sidisi, Demonic, Rune-Scarred
Entomb - I still run this and would rather cut one of the 3 already mentioned than this since it can fetch an answer to the graveyard at instant speed.
Buried Alive - I don't actually run this anymore, but it's an option.
Removal
I don't actually run stax effects like Grave Pactandfriends (or even Shelly) because I hate playing against it. In the same vein, I found itsETBcousins to be unnecessary for me, though I might add back one at most if it become necessary.
Noxious Gearhulk - Recurrable multiple ways and is an all-star card in my build. No nonblack/nonartifact restriction, the lifegain is one of my best sources due to large creatures, and the body can connect to opponent faces.
Head Games - Your combo opponents will love this one. I usually figure they want more lands.
Gonti, Lord of Luxury - They've already been mentioned, but has enabled some excellent utility against opponent's decks for me.
Thief of Blood - Super-friends? +1/+1 counters galore? Not so much a problem. Also great fodder for Disciple and Gearhulk.
Rings of Brighthearth - Infinite B with Coffers and Deserted Temple, plenty of abuse from other activated abilities in my deck. Fun with planeswalkers, too.
Darkness - Sometimes a well-timed fog will swing the game in your favor.
Homeward Path - Even if you resurrect through Chainer and activate this to give somebody their creature back, sack outlets ensure you can exile it if they betray you. But there are enough theft effects around that this is a staple in my decks.
Ritual of the Machine - I don't like its targeting restrictions, but it's still an interesting card in monoblack.
Pretty much the only cards I have not gone into are ramp, discard, misc black staples, and some other utility lands.
There are all amazing replies. Ryu, I particularly enjoyed reading your decklist, have you updated it since?
Lyon, thanks for such an in depth list. I'd run kokusho n gray myself, if my friends hate it as a win con I can replace. I obviously don't want a deck revolving around two cards to win. I agree with a lot of what you've listed.
Tonight I'll redo my list and change things based on all these replies and looking at your decklist. I feel everyone here has a great grasp on what I'm looking for.
Well (without getting deeper into thinking about trade-offs regarding card types, effects, and mana costs) some easy replacements could involve Mortuary Mire and Crypt of Agadeem for other lands mentioned if you're thinking of those. Maybe even a handful of the swamps for some important utility. Since you have stax elements here, targeted removal isn't as necessary so Arcane Lighthouse is really optional.
Since you're running Kokusho and Gary, Living Death is a consideration in place of a wipe or recursion sorcery.
Other than that, there's enough that I would remove (some that GloriousGoose mentioned, and others) that the slots could be filled by almost anything, even ignoring type or cost. For example, with stuff like Gary, Kokusho, and Exsanguinate you probably don't need the Sanguine Bond + Exquisite Blood combo at all. Pieces like those and Mindcrank could be replaced by almost anything you're considering. By the way, Mindcrank isn't mediocre here, it's just win-more: if you're making your opponents lost a lot of life you're doing fine and there's no point in milling them that much.
Out of curiosity, are there meta reasons why you're running Sadistic Sacrament and Praetor's Grasp? Combo decks or titans that prevent milling or something?
You also have 4 or so edict effects that pale in comparison to your Pact- and Fleshbag-style pieces. I'd think effects like Innocent Blood or Barter in Blood could keep pressure on all opponents, but Attrition is usually enough to have better choice over what does and trigger pacts. In the place of the edicts, you could consider cards that form synergy between sacrificing nontoken creatures and triggering your Pact effects, such as Pawn of Ulamog and Sifter of Skulls.
With so many suggestions to consider and so many suggested cuts, it takes some mental juggling to come up with more specific this -> that suggestions, but I'll probably look more later.
Alright I've made some cuts and replacements, everyone has given me very valid points and I completely agree. So based on what everyone has said here's some cuts and adds.
Added:
Bloodgift demon
Nights whisper
Sign in blood
Read the bones
Mutilate
Hero's downfall
Rune-Scarred demin
Killing wave
Thief of blood
No mercy
Noxious gearhulk
Skull clamp
Grim haruspex
Extraplanar lens
Burnished hart
Phyrexian tower
Solemn simulacrum
Bone shredder
Reassembling skeleton
Vesuva
Charcoal diamond
Vampiric tutor
Cut:
Sensei's Divining Top
Crypt of Agadeem
Mortuary Mire
blood artist
Bloodghast
Zulaport
Undercity informer
Elixir of immortality
Mindcrank
Beacon of unrest
Yahennis expertise
Black market
Palace seige
Phyrexian reclamation
Tainted remedy
Essence extraction
Praetor's grap
Sadistic sacrament
Alright I've made some cuts and replacements, everyone has given me very valid points and I completely agree. So based on what everyone has said here's some cuts and adds.
If you haven't learned [deck] or [card] tags yet, they tend to be appreciated. You can hit the "Quote" link on any post that contains formatting like that to see how it was done.
I was about to question Vesuva when I remembered Coffers isn't legendary. Also glad to see you added some ramp, too. Hart can be expensive to repeat, but I've kept it because of synergy with Rings and sometimes when you have mana open right before your turn and nothing else is pressing, you can just ramp.
Extraplanar Lens is pretty iffy. Depends on how much artifact removal is used in your meta. If there isn't much, try it out — it might teach them to add some removal. But that's the only thing that really stands out to me at the moment.
Sorry about the tags I'll make sure to use them, thanks.
So I should sub in more draw? I feel I have some good mana currently and removal. My only concern currently is the high cmc, I can cast Sorcery on early turns but feel having no real early creature drops kinda sets me back?
I have played mono black control for years. I don't claim to be the best, but I can share my experience. There are many ways to play mono black: Reanimator, combo, zombie tribal, tax, etc. I prefer control/goodstuff. that is what I will get advice on.
We will start with Macro advice (broad sweeping comments and tactics)
Mana base: What works best for me is about 33 lands, 11 mana rocks which cost 2 or less and about 6-8 ways to find lands and/or double your mana. this wil make 50-52 cards in your deck dedicated to mana production is one way or another. Note: You may want a "swamps matter" package in your deck, which means limiting your non-swamp cards is for the best.
Cabal Coffers - Do not put this into play until you have at least 3 swamps and can generate BBBB.
4 Swamps + CC = 6B = +1 B than if you had just played a 5th swamp
6 Swamps + Deserted Temple + CC = 13B +1B than if you had played a 7th swamp
6 Swamps + Deserted Temple + CC + Rings of Brighthearth = Infinite B Use rings to copy Deserted Temple, targeting itself.
Vesuva doesn't do it for me. It has only one true function - copy Cabal Coffers. Once you have Cabala Coffers + a Vasuva copy of Coffers in play, you will generate +3 B for each swamp you put into play, and you won't be doing this until turn at least turn 6. Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth helps the math along a lot more, but now we are talking about a 3 land combo. I would MUCH rather have Thespian's Stage.
Thespian's Stage - This card can copy Dark Depths and get the token into play for only 2 and sacrificing two lands. It can copy Cabal Coffers. It can copy something that comes into play AFTER you play it, unlike Vesuva.
Beyond the mana base, I suggest 14 or so forms of card draw and tutors. A good ratio is about 10 card draw and 4 tutors, but that is very flexible depending on your budget and intended power level. I own Imperial Seal and Dark Confidant, but there is nothing wrong with using Increasing Ambition and Read the Bones effects. In fact, I run those too
With the 50-52 forms of lands, ramp and fixing + 14 forms of card draw and tutors, you should NEVER run out of gas in any game or need to mulligan very often if at all. This foundation is how your deck will run consistently. this makes about 65 card when you add in your commander and means we have room for about 35 more cards.
Those 35 other card are the meat of your deck. In a control deck, you have to decide how much graveyard hate you want to protect against combo and recursion. I prefer to pack my deck with a lot of graveyard hate in my deck: Relic of Progenitus & Nihil Spellbomb can be a can trip at worst Withered Wretch, Nezumi Graverobber, Agent of Erebos, and Faerie Macabre are at worst bodies which can pick up equipment and act as sacrifice fodder. Leyline of the Void is a replacement effect and stops "When this creature dies" triggers and can combo with another card for infinite mill. Bojuka Bog is not as useful in my opinion in mono black as it is in multi colored decks which can blink it at instant speed, but it is still useful.
Next comes removal. A good balance between spot removal and board wipes is important and varies on what you play against. Hero's Downfall and Murder are more useful than Terror or Doom Blade. the extra mana cost in commander is irrelevant compared to how many multi-colored creatures with black in their casting cost there are worth killing but the others cards can't touch. The "non-black" clause is why I no longer use Shriekmaw or Nekrataal anymore.
To emphasize, the other 35 cards in your deck depend on what you want you and your deck wants to do. Cards which help your commander and goals. I have fun changing those cards around and trying new things all the time. That is why I don't like posting lists because my deck changes monthly if not weekly... but the mana base and card draw mostly stays the same.
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"Whatever style you wish to play, be it fast and frenzied or slow and tactical, the surest way to defeat your opponent consistently is by dominating him or her in the war of card advantage." - Brian Wiseman, April 1996
How does not playing a creature in the early turns set you back, necessarily? MBC is notoriously anti-creature so your job is to punish people who overcommit to the board by playing one of your many board wipes. On the subject of board wipes, you should play more like Nevinyrral's Disk, Oblivion Stone, and Toxic Deluge because they tend to have a chilling effect on the game, slowing the pace down and allowing your more expensive, powerful, backbreaking spells to shine. I dislike Killing Wave because while it's effective at killing large swarms of creatures, typically it leaves your opponents with one or two of their most important dudes. It's also ineffective early on.
I think you could probably use some more cheap mana rocks. Fellwar Stone, Mind Stone, Star Compass, Thought Vessel, Wayfarer's Bauble, etc. They seem mediocre on paper but in practice they synergize well with the deck. They give you early game plays that strengthen your middle and end game and allow you to draw cards early without having to pitch anything to the graveyard due to handsize. If you're worried about falling behind, it's not creatures you should concern yourself with but mana and cards in hand.
Also, on a different note, I wouldn't worry about people complaining about Gary loops or big Exsanguinates. I think they're very, very fair win conditions that depend on board state and/or mana production
So I should sub in more draw? I feel I have some good mana currently and removal. My only concern currently is the high cmc, I can cast Sorcery on early turns but feel having no real early creature drops kinda sets me back?
No, just making you aware of stuff that does other numbers of cards at other CMCs. Not really suggesting them at this point.
In my own deck I don't have many low-cmc creatures, either: I have 3 2-drops, 5 3-drops, 10 4-drops, 4 5-drops, and 6 that are 6+ CMC. So mine is a little on the heavy end, too. Some of the stuff I have in 1- and 2-cmc is ramp. This means I'm setting up in my early game even if I take a couple hits so I have CA that builds me up fast in the mid-game.
If your curve doesn't work out well, by all means tweak it, especially if things like Zulaport Cutthroat are useful to you (such as if the games tend to last longer).
Awesome thanks. When I get home I will look into more mana rocks, your right about the cmc for creatures just in my head im not playing it out right. I see what you mean though. Thanks everyone for the help. I'll do a few updates tonight any and all suggestions are welcome. This has been helpful not only for this deck but me learning magic in general, how a deck can operate etc. Appreciate it
Many good rocks have already been mentioned that cost 2 or less. I run a few of the ones mentioned. Coldsteel Heart is another one I use — more like diamonds than Star Compass (the compass is rarely a dud in mono-color decks, though). I probably should be running the compass instead of Worn Powerstone.
Gilded Lotus fits nicely with the deck though it costs more, though I'd rather get swamps and protect Crypt Ghast and Nirkana.
- control/have answers
- ETB to just add to chainers recursion
- multiple win cons
- just an overall strong deck
- proactive /reactive
- slow them down
- punish them
ETB effects on my creatures to just add that additional benefit from chainer. Strong Mana ramp, lots of control, like I said force them to discard cards, have a response, lock them down. Punish their plays.
So here's what I've come up with. The tutors I'll add just didn't know what to replace.
http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/mono-b-control-chainer/
The one thing I noticed about your list is the lack of card draw. Sure, tutoring for Necro can solve most of your card draw problems but that paints a huge target on your head, so I prefer incremental card draw like Night's Whisper, Sign in Blood, and Read the Bones.
Also, generally speaking, this forum frowns on linking to other websites and most users prefer you to post your list using the deck tags here.
EDIT: I dislike the following:
Blood Artist (I found it underwhelming)
Bloodghast (I don't think you have enough good sac outlets to do much with the recursion)
Sheoldred, Whispering One (controversial opinion here but in my list I found her winmore)
Undercity Informer (in here persumably for self mill, I think there are better ways to accomplish that)
Zulaport Cutthroat (see Blood Artist, though I never actually played this version of this effect)
Elixir of Immortality (saves your graveyard in a pinch but I think it's pretty low impact)
Mindcrank (without the Bloodchief's Ascension combo it seems mediocre)
Beacon of Unrest (mostly redundant with your general, and also mana intensive)
Life's Finale (too mana intensive, try Mutilate or Toxic Deluge instead)
Ruinous Path (a good card, but I dislike sorcery speed spot removal; try Hero's Downfall)
Yahenni's Expertise (eh, seems low impact unless you face a lot of 'go wide' strategies or mana dorks)
Black Market (I found it winmore with all the doublers and other ramp in my deck)
Palace Siege (both modes I find underwhelming, but I never actually tested it)
Phyrexian Reclamation (a fantastic card, no doubt, but redundant with your general; if you want a back up recursion card try Strands of Night)
Tainted Rememdy (unless you face Oloro constantly I don't see this doing much work)
Crypt of Agadeem (I hate ETB tapped lands, and I rarely got more of a 2-3 mana bump from using this at best)
Essence Extraction (low impact unless you fight a lot of low toughness generals)
In their places I would add card draw, the tutors, and some more creatures to get more mileage out of Chainer's ability. Rune-Scarred Demon is an all star, as is Myojin of Night's Reach. Speaking of the Myojin, Mind Sludge and Mind Twist are excellent haymakers against blue decks.
[Primer] Erebos, God of the Dead
HONK HONK
I am fairy confused again only month of magic, but looking at the three of yours. In your thread it seemed like too much mana and single reliant on chainer with mass mana. I read through and you also said it hadn't been played really, has it been played now? Have you changed anything since that post as it was a while ago?
I understand your points though and agree fully, I didn't want to have my board state basically be..
Ok I can't play a creature because everything is a 4-5 drop. Just seemed like having such a high average cmc wouldn't help.
I play against a saskia drsgon deck that will literally swing and burn with great card synergy. Atraxxa with massive counters being placed on creatures double them etc, with few burns and spot removal or creatures removing counters/hangar back /ballista etc. A sram equipment deck again constant draw free play flash play swing n win. A werewolf deck. And a breya Artifact deck with Swords.
I want answers to their win cons, I wanna take the field. I am lucky though, they all need ramp unless they god hand it or sram comes out. I do probably have a grace period of 2-3 turns. Again we don't play 2k decks, sram is most expensive at like 800-900 n he doesn't play it against our group cuz it's strong but we're all working on getting our decks to that point to play all out.
Sorry about the link didn't know, again I appreciate your extensive reply it has given me a lot to look at and reconsider. I look forward to compiling something with what you've said in terms of what I should cut etc.
Again no majoy budget restrictions, not dropping 1k but I'd be fine dropping 500. And I can throw cash at it every other week. I just don't wanna spend 500 for a deck that just doesn't work.
Thanks.
My deck in particular is focused on the long game. I want to win by outlasting everyone else. One of the best cards for this is Xiahou Dun, the One-Eyed. Getting access to instants, sorceries and enchantments from your graveyard late in the game can be backbreaking (likewise, Crucible of Worlds for lands, and for artifacts I like Myr Retriever, but this is a pet card).
I also focus on my own graveyard almost exclusively. Since you can't control what other people pack in their deck (thought, you seem to have a good idea, since you play against them often), you want to try and always have an answer in your own yard. Steel Hellkite can answer enchantments and artifacts, there's a million Nekrataal effects, so take your pick there. If you need card draw late game, I prefer Disciple of Bolas or Vulturous Aven.
If you're going to run tutors, I'd really recommend Rune-Scarred Demon and Sidisi, Undead Vizier. I run Demonic Tutor, and it's fine, but it's so much easier to use and reuse the creatures late game than a sorcery, and by then the mana difference is likely negligible anyway. Actually, in general, if you want an effect and there's a creature that can do it (Grave Pact/Butcher of Malakir, for example), you're better off using the creature, since that's kind of Chainer's whole schtick. And, you'll occasionally catch the table by surprise when you bring the creature in at instant speed, instead of having the enchantment sitting on the table for everyone to play around. Not to mention the whole "creatures can hit your opponents in the face, if they don't have blockers" thing.
One thing my group often forgets about my deck is that I can win with commander damage. Bestowing Nighthowler on my commander has won a lot of games when people weren't prepared for it. I'm not recommending it, necessarily, but it's always fun to win that way, for me.
So, my advice is - plan for the long game. The longer the game goes, the better position you're going to be in.
Also, never forget that Chainer is a nightmare lord, and all your creatures will be nightmares. I can't count the number of times I forgot that and robbed myself of incremental damage that would have really helped late game.
WU Bruna UW | R Kiki-Jiki R | RB New Chainer BR
Legacy - Burn | Pauper - Reanimator | Aristocrats | Burn
@votechainer2016
Also for draw sack Vampiric Rites never have enough sack.
Ohh and keep Life's Finale if you know what your playing against in others decks.
Edit. You have not one single way to deal with Enchantments. Maybe a Disk or two..
I'm pretty big on trying to have answers to as many situations as possible. Locked out due to Iona? Pfft.
WBRG Saskia the Unyielding
WUB Sharuum the Hegemon
RWU Shu Yun, the Silent Tempest
RG Wort, the Raidmother
WU Brago, King Eternal
B Chainer, Dementia Master
My plan A is to be able to win with what I have in my deck, and what other people bring to the table is just a bonus that could make it easier. Sometimes a lot easier. But I want combat damage to be just as viable an option with this deck as leeching life.
I try not to have too many instances of certain effects to avoid repetitive play (still working on this, though). For example, I don't run Kokusho, Gary, or Exsanguinate anymore. I stopped running Gary because I would just loop XHD and Living Death with a sacrifice outlet. I don't run Kokusho for the same reason as Gary. I replaced Exsanguinate with Blood Tithe because half of my games ended with that once I had enough mana, which is boring for me. I prefer to toy with my prey and watch them struggle for their last breath rather than nuke the table. Fortunately, my opponents have more fun even if they lose if they felt they had a chance up until the end. Eventually I realized even Tithe was unnecessary for life gain considering other sources I use.
Also, some of my current choices (which may not appear here) are backups to creature/ETB sources of an effect in case of things like Torpor Orb or Grafdigger's Cage. For example, Strands of Night is a great backup to Chainer, but Phyrexian Reclamation provides a good backup that gets around the Cage and enables better re-use of pieces like Myojin of Night's Reach or eldrazi titans if you run them. Especially if you don't have Yawgmoth's Will.
Sacrifice
I use more sacrifice outlets of various types to deal with the Nightmare thing and to control timing of effects or play around certain types of removal.
I almost prefer draw over tutors these days.
I try to restrain my use of these to ramp and answers, personally.
I don't actually run stax effects like Grave Pact and friends (or even Shelly) because I hate playing against it. In the same vein, I found its ETB cousins to be unnecessary for me, though I might add back one at most if it become necessary.
If you want an option for destroying everything in mono-black, Oblivion Stone is one of your best bets.
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R Zada Arcane Storm
RBU Marchesa
GWU Estrid
GWR Samut?
URB Kess
(R/W)(U/B) Akiri & Silas
BWR Alesha
R Neheb Dragons
G Nylea Wurms
W Darien
U Tetsuko
Lyon, thanks for such an in depth list. I'd run kokusho n gray myself, if my friends hate it as a win con I can replace. I obviously don't want a deck revolving around two cards to win. I agree with a lot of what you've listed.
Tonight I'll redo my list and change things based on all these replies and looking at your decklist. I feel everyone here has a great grasp on what I'm looking for.
Any specific cut n replacement suggestions?
Yahenni's Expertise could easily be Mutilate or better.
Since you're running Kokusho and Gary, Living Death is a consideration in place of a wipe or recursion sorcery.
Other than that, there's enough that I would remove (some that GloriousGoose mentioned, and others) that the slots could be filled by almost anything, even ignoring type or cost. For example, with stuff like Gary, Kokusho, and Exsanguinate you probably don't need the Sanguine Bond + Exquisite Blood combo at all. Pieces like those and Mindcrank could be replaced by almost anything you're considering. By the way, Mindcrank isn't mediocre here, it's just win-more: if you're making your opponents lost a lot of life you're doing fine and there's no point in milling them that much.
Out of curiosity, are there meta reasons why you're running Sadistic Sacrament and Praetor's Grasp? Combo decks or titans that prevent milling or something?
You also have 4 or so edict effects that pale in comparison to your Pact- and Fleshbag-style pieces. I'd think effects like Innocent Blood or Barter in Blood could keep pressure on all opponents, but Attrition is usually enough to have better choice over what does and trigger pacts. In the place of the edicts, you could consider cards that form synergy between sacrificing nontoken creatures and triggering your Pact effects, such as Pawn of Ulamog and Sifter of Skulls.
With so many suggestions to consider and so many suggested cuts, it takes some mental juggling to come up with more specific this -> that suggestions, but I'll probably look more later.
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R Zada Arcane Storm
RBU Marchesa
GWU Estrid
GWR Samut?
URB Kess
(R/W)(U/B) Akiri & Silas
BWR Alesha
R Neheb Dragons
G Nylea Wurms
W Darien
U Tetsuko
Added:
Bloodgift demon
Nights whisper
Sign in blood
Read the bones
Mutilate
Hero's downfall
Rune-Scarred demin
Killing wave
Thief of blood
No mercy
Noxious gearhulk
Skull clamp
Grim haruspex
Extraplanar lens
Burnished hart
Phyrexian tower
Solemn simulacrum
Bone shredder
Reassembling skeleton
Vesuva
Charcoal diamond
Vampiric tutor
Cut:
Sensei's Divining Top
Crypt of Agadeem
Mortuary Mire
blood artist
Bloodghast
Zulaport
Undercity informer
Elixir of immortality
Mindcrank
Beacon of unrest
Yahennis expertise
Black market
Palace seige
Phyrexian reclamation
Tainted remedy
Essence extraction
Praetor's grap
Sadistic sacrament
I was about to question Vesuva when I remembered Coffers isn't legendary. Also glad to see you added some ramp, too. Hart can be expensive to repeat, but I've kept it because of synergy with Rings and sometimes when you have mana open right before your turn and nothing else is pressing, you can just ramp.
Extraplanar Lens is pretty iffy. Depends on how much artifact removal is used in your meta. If there isn't much, try it out — it might teach them to add some removal. But that's the only thing that really stands out to me at the moment.
Considering your use of the life-for-cards draw spells, you might also take a look at the following to play around with the mix of that kind of spell: Ambition's Cost, Ancient Craving, Promise of Power, Sanguimancy (since you have a black devotion subtheme), Succumb to Temptation, and last but not least Skeletal Scrying.
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R Zada Arcane Storm
RBU Marchesa
GWU Estrid
GWR Samut?
URB Kess
(R/W)(U/B) Akiri & Silas
BWR Alesha
R Neheb Dragons
G Nylea Wurms
W Darien
U Tetsuko
So I should sub in more draw? I feel I have some good mana currently and removal. My only concern currently is the high cmc, I can cast Sorcery on early turns but feel having no real early creature drops kinda sets me back?
We will start with Macro advice (broad sweeping comments and tactics)
Mana base: What works best for me is about 33 lands, 11 mana rocks which cost 2 or less and about 6-8 ways to find lands and/or double your mana. this wil make 50-52 cards in your deck dedicated to mana production is one way or another. Note: You may want a "swamps matter" package in your deck, which means limiting your non-swamp cards is for the best.
Cabal Coffers - Do not put this into play until you have at least 3 swamps and can generate BBBB.
4 Swamps + CC = 6B = +1 B than if you had just played a 5th swamp
6 Swamps + Deserted Temple + CC = 13B +1B than if you had played a 7th swamp
6 Swamps + Deserted Temple + CC + Rings of Brighthearth = Infinite B Use rings to copy Deserted Temple, targeting itself.
Vesuva doesn't do it for me. It has only one true function - copy Cabal Coffers. Once you have Cabala Coffers + a Vasuva copy of Coffers in play, you will generate +3 B for each swamp you put into play, and you won't be doing this until turn at least turn 6. Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth helps the math along a lot more, but now we are talking about a 3 land combo. I would MUCH rather have Thespian's Stage.
Thespian's Stage - This card can copy Dark Depths and get the token into play for only 2 and sacrificing two lands. It can copy Cabal Coffers. It can copy something that comes into play AFTER you play it, unlike Vesuva.
After your 33 lands and 11 mana rocks, my 6-8 other cards are:
Solemn Simulacrum
Liliana's Shade - Depends on the deck needs. Great in Ghoulcaller Gisa because it can be pumped and sacrificed.
Liliana of the Dark Realms - Total MVP and vastly underrated
Crypt Ghast
Nirkana Revenant
Gauntlet of Power - Overrated
Caged Sun - Overrated
Magus of the Coffers - Marginal at best
Extraplanar Lens - I was never impressed with this
Burnished Hart - Kind of terrible
Pilgrim's Eye - Also kind of terrible
=================================
Beyond the mana base, I suggest 14 or so forms of card draw and tutors. A good ratio is about 10 card draw and 4 tutors, but that is very flexible depending on your budget and intended power level. I own Imperial Seal and Dark Confidant, but there is nothing wrong with using Increasing Ambition and Read the Bones effects. In fact, I run those too
With the 50-52 forms of lands, ramp and fixing + 14 forms of card draw and tutors, you should NEVER run out of gas in any game or need to mulligan very often if at all. This foundation is how your deck will run consistently. this makes about 65 card when you add in your commander and means we have room for about 35 more cards.
Those 35 other card are the meat of your deck. In a control deck, you have to decide how much graveyard hate you want to protect against combo and recursion. I prefer to pack my deck with a lot of graveyard hate in my deck:
Relic of Progenitus & Nihil Spellbomb can be a can trip at worst
Withered Wretch, Nezumi Graverobber, Agent of Erebos, and Faerie Macabre are at worst bodies which can pick up equipment and act as sacrifice fodder.
Leyline of the Void is a replacement effect and stops "When this creature dies" triggers and can combo with another card for infinite mill.
Bojuka Bog is not as useful in my opinion in mono black as it is in multi colored decks which can blink it at instant speed, but it is still useful.
Next comes removal. A good balance between spot removal and board wipes is important and varies on what you play against. Hero's Downfall and Murder are more useful than Terror or Doom Blade. the extra mana cost in commander is irrelevant compared to how many multi-colored creatures with black in their casting cost there are worth killing but the others cards can't touch. The "non-black" clause is why I no longer use Shriekmaw or Nekrataal anymore.
To emphasize, the other 35 cards in your deck depend on what you want you and your deck wants to do. Cards which help your commander and goals. I have fun changing those cards around and trying new things all the time. That is why I don't like posting lists because my deck changes monthly if not weekly... but the mana base and card draw mostly stays the same.
I think you could probably use some more cheap mana rocks. Fellwar Stone, Mind Stone, Star Compass, Thought Vessel, Wayfarer's Bauble, etc. They seem mediocre on paper but in practice they synergize well with the deck. They give you early game plays that strengthen your middle and end game and allow you to draw cards early without having to pitch anything to the graveyard due to handsize. If you're worried about falling behind, it's not creatures you should concern yourself with but mana and cards in hand.
Also, on a different note, I wouldn't worry about people complaining about Gary loops or big Exsanguinates. I think they're very, very fair win conditions that depend on board state and/or mana production
[Primer] Erebos, God of the Dead
HONK HONK
In my own deck I don't have many low-cmc creatures, either: I have 3 2-drops, 5 3-drops, 10 4-drops, 4 5-drops, and 6 that are 6+ CMC. So mine is a little on the heavy end, too. Some of the stuff I have in 1- and 2-cmc is ramp. This means I'm setting up in my early game even if I take a couple hits so I have CA that builds me up fast in the mid-game.
If your curve doesn't work out well, by all means tweak it, especially if things like Zulaport Cutthroat are useful to you (such as if the games tend to last longer).
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R Zada Arcane Storm
RBU Marchesa
GWU Estrid
GWR Samut?
URB Kess
(R/W)(U/B) Akiri & Silas
BWR Alesha
R Neheb Dragons
G Nylea Wurms
W Darien
U Tetsuko
Gilded Lotus fits nicely with the deck though it costs more, though I'd rather get swamps and protect Crypt Ghast and Nirkana.
Terrain Generator goes well with the card draw and Rings, but I'm thinking of testing Walking Atlas.
old thread
old thread
old thread
R Zada Arcane Storm
RBU Marchesa
GWU Estrid
GWR Samut?
URB Kess
(R/W)(U/B) Akiri & Silas
BWR Alesha
R Neheb Dragons
G Nylea Wurms
W Darien
U Tetsuko
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