Since we don't really have "colorless" non-Eldrazi spells (aside from Artifacts), I think the answer lies in Artifacts somewhere. Artifacts have a tendency of being MacGuffins in the Magic universe (Brothers War, anyone?), so if a meddler with enough power (or a strong enough Artifact) bumbles around Zendikar enough with one, I see that being the way to combat the Eldrazi. A handful of the Neowalkers are Artificers; maybe we'll see Tezzerett unleash the Eldrazi upon the multiverse?
I may not have enough information to be convinced colorless magic is the way to go. From what I understand, Ugin combated the Eldrazi with colorless fire when the three original planeswalkers were trapping the Eldrazi on Zendikar. That was back when they were oldwalkers, and had near-god power. If a near-god oldwalker couldn't kill the Eldrazi with colorless magic, I'm not sure colorless magic will succeed now either.
@Maraxus: That'd be quite a sight - but do you think they wouldn't grow sentience of their own [presuming they began as Tezzeret's lackeys] and become an extension of the Eldrazi?
@Perkunas: Okay, and your thoughts on the Artifact theory?
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Artifacts aren't the same as colourless magic. That I can recall, we've never actually seen anyone summon an artifact. They're built. To work in game they have to count as spells and use mana to cast them, but as far as the storyline goes, I don't think we can count them as colourless. At least, not colourless in the way that the Eldrazi or Ghostfire are.
Basically, I don't think artifacts would be any more effective at dealing with the Eldrazi than anything else. They're still powered by regular, run-of-the-mill mana.
Since we don't really have "colorless" non-Eldrazi spells (aside from Artifacts), I think the answer lies in Artifacts somewhere. Artifacts have a tendency of being MacGuffins in the Magic universe (Brothers War, anyone?), so if a meddler with enough power (or a strong enough Artifact) bumbles around Zendikar enough with one, I see that being the way to combat the Eldrazi. A handful of the Neowalkers are Artificers; maybe we'll see Tezzerett unleash the Eldrazi upon the multiverse?
Artifacts aren't the same as colourless magic. That I can recall, we've never actually seen anyone summon an artifact. They're built. To work in game they have to count as spells and use mana to cast them, but as far as the storyline goes, I don't think we can count them as colourless. At least, not colourless in the way that the Eldrazi or Ghostfire are.
Basically, I don't think artifacts would be any more effective at dealing with the Eldrazi than anything else. They're still powered by regular, run-of-the-mill mana.
What he said.
To expound a little futher, you're missing the distinction between artifacts (which don't require a specific color of mana to manifest) and the unique nature of the Eldrazi (which exist outside color). Ugin's ghostfire is a whole other thing; it's much closer to the Eldrazi in that it's a magic derived nor from any specific color but specifically from the *absence* of color, which is part of what made it so effective against them.
The only reason the hedrons are so effective against the Eldrazi is that they're designed specifically to combat them as part of the trap Sorin, Ugin, and the lithomancer made using their full power as Oldwalkers. And even the hedrons aren't working as intended; the Eldrazi have started to subvert and influence the hedrons to their own ends. There's no reason to believe that a run-of-the-mill artifact would be any more effective against them than, say, a lightning bolt.
I guess I don't see how "existing outside of a specific color" is not akin to "does not require a specific color to manifest".
Let's talk in terms of waves.
If someone says, "This mana takes the form of non-radioactive [read: negligible amounts of radiation, if any] energy", that tells me it's either visible light, infrared, microwaves, or radio waves. What you're suggesting is that the Eldrazi transcend all of these types of waves, to some kind of wave that doesn't fall under these categories?
Basically, how do you know that Artifacts don't count as "outside of color"? Lands can produce colorless mana, after all - which can be used to cast Artifacts, no?
@Stardust: Speaking strictly from a flavor standpoint, how do you imagine Artifacts being "cast" in the heat of battle? I always imagined a mage summoning enough mana from the surrounding land to manifest an object of their imagination/memory (similar to casting a burn spell, or summoning a creature). Do you have a different understanding? If so, how do you propose mages "build" their Artifacts in a reasonable enough time not to get slaughtered by their opponents in the process?
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Storyline/game-play segregation, I guess. If I had to take a stab, the planeswalkers bring the artifacts with them and use mana to charge them, making them ready to use.
It's not that I don't think it could be done, just that we've never seen it. Dozens of references exist in MTG lore for summoning creatures. Dozens of references exist for building artifacts. None exist for summoning artifacts.
In any case, even if we did agree that artifacts are summoned, the info we've got on the Eldrazi makes it pretty explicit that they're different from anything we've ever seen. Artifacts use mana to operate (or to summon them, if you like). The Eldrazi exist outside the confines of normal mana. They're both colourless, but one is the absence of colour and the other is any colour. Does that make sense?
Sorin was willing to walk away and let Zendikar get eaten,
I think it was less to do with him not caring, and more to do with he's not a godwalker anymore.
If the best he could do with all the power in Dominia at his tips was lock them up, and they've been let loose without him having all that power, there's just not a lot he can do at this point.
The problem with that is that some artifacts are way too stinking big for that to work. Darksteel Forge for instance.
Yep. The thought had crossed my mind, but I don't really like the idea of someone summoning a forge that size either. I'll just stick with my original answer of storyline/game-play segregation.
A thought occurs to me. A mysterious lithomancer was apparently the key to creating the Eldrazi's prison, and they seem to have vanished since then. Well ... we have another lithomancer: Koth. While he hasn't had any connection to Zendikar so far, is there any possibility that perhaps he could somehow "repair" the prison? Sorin could perhaps walk him through it.
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A thought occurs to me. A mysterious lithomancer was apparently the key to creating the Eldrazi's prison, and they seem to have vanished since then. Well ... we have another lithomancer: Koth. While he hasn't had any connection to Zendikar so far, is there any possibility that perhaps he could somehow "repair" the prison? Sorin could perhaps walk him through it.
Koth isn't a lithomancer, he's a geomancer. Lithomancers sculpt stone into large structures (monolith shares the same root word), geomancers tap into the geological forces of mountains/volcanos.
I could see a German planeswalker stepping into the arena, mana rocks and strange keys jangling from his belt. Then drawing mana from mana bonds/the rocks to raise a monolith radiating mana in the midst of the battlefield. That's how I look at large, unweildy artifacts and the smaller ones when it comes to the TCG. Creature summoning could work either way. If you know something you like is nearby, you can summon it. If it's something you recall from a prior encounter, you'd summon the creature as you remember it. If you like Dementist casting, you've got a mental landscape populated with whatever creatures you've tagged and caught. There's numerous ways to explain summoning, which adds some character to the planeswalker in question.
Artifacts are essentially machines that can run on any kind of mana.
I guess I don't see how "existing outside of a specific color" is not akin to "does not require a specific color to manifest".
Let's talk in terms of waves.
If someone says, "This mana takes the form of non-radioactive [read: negligible amounts of radiation, if any] energy", that tells me it's either visible light, infrared, microwaves, or radio waves. What you're suggesting is that the Eldrazi transcend all of these types of waves, to some kind of wave that doesn't fall under these categories?
Basically, how do you know that Artifacts don't count as "outside of color"? Lands can produce colorless mana, after all - which can be used to cast Artifacts, no?
@Stardust: Speaking strictly from a flavor standpoint, how do you imagine Artifacts being "cast" in the heat of battle? I always imagined a mage summoning enough mana from the surrounding land to manifest an object of their imagination/memory (similar to casting a burn spell, or summoning a creature). Do you have a different understanding? If so, how do you propose mages "build" their Artifacts in a reasonable enough time not to get slaughtered by their opponents in the process?
The Eldrazi eat color. Quite literally too. Even if you use waves, they are not a form of waves, but a being that consumes wave-types.
Most spells require colored mana to fuel it - and are colored "results". If the Eldrazi can consume color - they effectively neuter the color that makes the spell a spell. A normal fireball would be sapped out of its red-mana, and ceases to become fire. It doesn't become a ghost-fireball because a normal fireball fuelled by red mana for a red result.
Artifacts take a lot more effort to convert generic energy into colored "results". But the results are still "colored" (in the flavor sense) and as such, the Eldrazi can still consume their "colored" nature.
Artifacts work hard to convert generic stuff to burning fire. Ugin works hard to make generic stuff burn like fire. Or actually, since you have to pay red for Ghostfire, Ugin is able to "consume" red nature away from a fire. But he's an intelligent oldwalker dragon that probably worked hard to master that for one color... so that's saying a lot.
Just a question, but has it been stated for sure that Ugin was killed by Bolas? Hasn't that been left sort of ambiguous? So Wizards could pull him back into the storyline (Sarkhan frees him from Bolas to flip Bolas a nice-sized middle finger, for example) and use him to help re-imprison the Eldrazi.
Then again, Ugin is also in the same boat as Sorin now that the Oldwalker power is gone, so that Lithomancer might be Zendikar's (and possibly Dominia's) last hope.
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It was ambiguous. I can't remember the wording (it was in the final act of the Eldrazi webcomic if you want to check), but I remember it being clear that if Ugin is alive, he's no longer imprisoned by Bolas.
EDIT: "Because I know where Ugin lays. I put him there myself, not so long ago."
Not as ambiguous as I remembered! He's probably dead. If not, imprisoned - but the way Bolas goes on to talk about Ugin's secrets implies he can't exctract more information from the spirit dragon.
Just a question, but has it been stated for sure that Ugin was killed by Bolas? Hasn't that been left sort of ambiguous? So Wizards could pull him back into the storyline (Sarkhan frees him from Bolas to flip Bolas a nice-sized middle finger, for example) and use him to help re-imprison the Eldrazi.
Then again, Ugin is also in the same boat as Sorin now that the Oldwalker power is gone, so that Lithomancer might be Zendikar's (and possibly Dominia's) last hope.
Like Stardust said, it's a pretty sure bet that Bolas killed Ugin ("I know where he lies because I put him here" is about as unambiguous as Nicky gets). Also, Sarkhan's such a broken mess right now I don't know that he can ever stand up to Bolas. He's not exactly playing with a full deck these days.
(In fact, I'm pretty sure he's playing with two Pro Player cards and the sideboard to a circa-2012 Birthing Pod deck. No, Sarkhan, a 2007 Tiego Chan is not actually a Snapcaster Mage, so you can't flash back Jose Barbero. )
(In fact, I'm pretty sure he's playing with two Pro Player cards and the sideboard to a circa-2012 Birthing Pod deck. No, Sarkhan, a 2007 Tiego Chan is not actually a Snapcaster Mage, so you can't flash back Jose Barbero. )
I love using them as tokens. There's something deeply cathartic about it to my flavor sensibilities.
Unless the nature of the spark is reversed back to its pre-mending state, I don't see the Eldrazi being defeated in near future. Neowalkers are too weak to take out the eldrazi titans.
What about a Neowalker who has ascended to Godhood? Still not an Oldwalker, but a significant upgrade. It's pretty clear that Neowalkers can still amass immense power, so I don't think the Eldrazi are undefeatable, you'd just need the right combination of players.
Though I am still curious why Bolas wished them released in the first place.
I don't remember it ever explicitly being said, but there are a few plausible reasons:
1) Bolas is looking for anything that could potentially restore his lost oldwalker power.
2) Bolas wanted to see what Ugin had been up to
3) Bolas wanted to see what the Eldrazi were capable of and if he could use them in some way
4) Bolas enjoys screwing with Jace as a hobby (my personal favorite theory)
In any case, I'm sure his 'reason' will be made at least somewhat more clear, or retconned, with the next set to feature Eldrazi.
What about a Neowalker who has ascended to Godhood? Still not an Oldwalker, but a significant upgrade. It's pretty clear that Neowalkers can still amass immense power, so I don't think the Eldrazi are undefeatable, you'd just need the right combination of players.
The question we still don't know the answer to is "Does godhood transcend planar boundaries?" That is, if a planeswalker becomes a god on a given plane, and walks away, is that walker still a god upon arrival at the destination plane, or is divinity tied to the specific plane?
(Specifically, if Xenagos walked away right now to Zendikar, would he still be a god there? Or is he only a god so long as he's on Theros?
Because if he's still a god upon leaving Theros, the multiverse just got a dangerous new force to deal with, and he might be a Chekov's 'walker for future conflicts.)
The question we still don't know the answer to is "Does godhood transcend planar boundaries?" That is, if a planeswalker becomes a god on a given plane, and walks away, is that walker still a god upon arrival at the destination plane, or is divinity tied to the specific plane?
(Specifically, if Xenagos walked away right now to Zendikar, would he still be a god there? Or is he only a god so long as he's on Theros?
Because if he's still a god upon leaving Theros, the multiverse just got a dangerous new force to deal with, and he might be a Chekov's 'walker for future conflicts.)
That's a good question. I guess it depends on whether Nyx's power is exclusive to Theros or if it functions like mana bonds. Considering the answer from Doug's blog was cagey, I'm guessing that will be a plot point. We'll just have to wait and see.
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Wait, so, did Bolas free the Eldrazi? Or did he just want it to happen?
He set up events so that it would happen, but didn't count on Ugin, Sorin, and the nameless Lithomancer being intelligent and installing multiple locks.
That's a good question. I guess it depends on whether Nyx's power is exclusive to Theros or if it functions like mana bonds. Considering the answer from Doug's blog was cagey, I'm guessing that will be a plot point. We'll just have to wait and see.
While I'm here, any news on a Theros block ebook?
Drops April 22, if I recall correctly. Title is Theros: Godsend. I linked it on another thread, but I'm Kindle posting right now so I'm too lazy to track it back down.
Drops April 22, if I recall correctly. Title is Theros: Godsend. I linked it on another thread, but I'm Kindle posting right now so I'm too lazy to track it back down.
@Maraxus: That'd be quite a sight - but do you think they wouldn't grow sentience of their own [presuming they began as Tezzeret's lackeys] and become an extension of the Eldrazi?
To steer clear of baseless speculation, let's substitute Phantasmal Image for Phrexian Metalmorph. Since Tezzeret would be dealing with copies instead of the real deal, I don't think sentience would be a problem. Unless the Eldrazi conscripted it, thereby destroying the copy. Tezzeret could easily snare any of the Eldrazi in some Tangle Wire, though that's a temporary fix.
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I may not have enough information to be convinced colorless magic is the way to go. From what I understand, Ugin combated the Eldrazi with colorless fire when the three original planeswalkers were trapping the Eldrazi on Zendikar. That was back when they were oldwalkers, and had near-god power. If a near-god oldwalker couldn't kill the Eldrazi with colorless magic, I'm not sure colorless magic will succeed now either.
@Perkunas: Okay, and your thoughts on the Artifact theory?
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Basically, I don't think artifacts would be any more effective at dealing with the Eldrazi than anything else. They're still powered by regular, run-of-the-mill mana.
Once again, WE ARE NOT ENTERTAINING ANYTHING RELATED TO PHYREXIANS VERSUS ELDRAZI.
What he said.
To expound a little futher, you're missing the distinction between artifacts (which don't require a specific color of mana to manifest) and the unique nature of the Eldrazi (which exist outside color). Ugin's ghostfire is a whole other thing; it's much closer to the Eldrazi in that it's a magic derived nor from any specific color but specifically from the *absence* of color, which is part of what made it so effective against them.
The only reason the hedrons are so effective against the Eldrazi is that they're designed specifically to combat them as part of the trap Sorin, Ugin, and the lithomancer made using their full power as Oldwalkers. And even the hedrons aren't working as intended; the Eldrazi have started to subvert and influence the hedrons to their own ends. There's no reason to believe that a run-of-the-mill artifact would be any more effective against them than, say, a lightning bolt.
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Let's talk in terms of waves.
If someone says, "This mana takes the form of non-radioactive [read: negligible amounts of radiation, if any] energy", that tells me it's either visible light, infrared, microwaves, or radio waves. What you're suggesting is that the Eldrazi transcend all of these types of waves, to some kind of wave that doesn't fall under these categories?
Basically, how do you know that Artifacts don't count as "outside of color"? Lands can produce colorless mana, after all - which can be used to cast Artifacts, no?
@Stardust: Speaking strictly from a flavor standpoint, how do you imagine Artifacts being "cast" in the heat of battle? I always imagined a mage summoning enough mana from the surrounding land to manifest an object of their imagination/memory (similar to casting a burn spell, or summoning a creature). Do you have a different understanding? If so, how do you propose mages "build" their Artifacts in a reasonable enough time not to get slaughtered by their opponents in the process?
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It's not that I don't think it could be done, just that we've never seen it. Dozens of references exist in MTG lore for summoning creatures. Dozens of references exist for building artifacts. None exist for summoning artifacts.
In any case, even if we did agree that artifacts are summoned, the info we've got on the Eldrazi makes it pretty explicit that they're different from anything we've ever seen. Artifacts use mana to operate (or to summon them, if you like). The Eldrazi exist outside the confines of normal mana. They're both colourless, but one is the absence of colour and the other is any colour. Does that make sense?
I think it was less to do with him not caring, and more to do with he's not a godwalker anymore.
If the best he could do with all the power in Dominia at his tips was lock them up, and they've been let loose without him having all that power, there's just not a lot he can do at this point.
The problem with that is that some artifacts are way too stinking big for that to work.
Darksteel Forge for instance.
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Yep. The thought had crossed my mind, but I don't really like the idea of someone summoning a forge that size either. I'll just stick with my original answer of storyline/game-play segregation.
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Koth isn't a lithomancer, he's a geomancer. Lithomancers sculpt stone into large structures (monolith shares the same root word), geomancers tap into the geological forces of mountains/volcanos.
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Artifacts are essentially machines that can run on any kind of mana.
The Eldrazi eat color. Quite literally too. Even if you use waves, they are not a form of waves, but a being that consumes wave-types.
Most spells require colored mana to fuel it - and are colored "results". If the Eldrazi can consume color - they effectively neuter the color that makes the spell a spell. A normal fireball would be sapped out of its red-mana, and ceases to become fire. It doesn't become a ghost-fireball because a normal fireball fuelled by red mana for a red result.
Artifacts take a lot more effort to convert generic energy into colored "results". But the results are still "colored" (in the flavor sense) and as such, the Eldrazi can still consume their "colored" nature.
Artifacts work hard to convert generic stuff to burning fire. Ugin works hard to make generic stuff burn like fire. Or actually, since you have to pay red for Ghostfire, Ugin is able to "consume" red nature away from a fire. But he's an intelligent oldwalker dragon that probably worked hard to master that for one color... so that's saying a lot.
Then again, Ugin is also in the same boat as Sorin now that the Oldwalker power is gone, so that Lithomancer might be Zendikar's (and possibly Dominia's) last hope.
EDIT: "Because I know where Ugin lays. I put him there myself, not so long ago."
Not as ambiguous as I remembered! He's probably dead. If not, imprisoned - but the way Bolas goes on to talk about Ugin's secrets implies he can't exctract more information from the spirit dragon.
Like Stardust said, it's a pretty sure bet that Bolas killed Ugin ("I know where he lies because I put him here" is about as unambiguous as Nicky gets). Also, Sarkhan's such a broken mess right now I don't know that he can ever stand up to Bolas. He's not exactly playing with a full deck these days.
(In fact, I'm pretty sure he's playing with two Pro Player cards and the sideboard to a circa-2012 Birthing Pod deck. No, Sarkhan, a 2007 Tiego Chan is not actually a Snapcaster Mage, so you can't flash back Jose Barbero. )
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I love using them as tokens. There's something deeply cathartic about it to my flavor sensibilities.
What about a Neowalker who has ascended to Godhood? Still not an Oldwalker, but a significant upgrade. It's pretty clear that Neowalkers can still amass immense power, so I don't think the Eldrazi are undefeatable, you'd just need the right combination of players.
I don't remember it ever explicitly being said, but there are a few plausible reasons:
1) Bolas is looking for anything that could potentially restore his lost oldwalker power.
2) Bolas wanted to see what Ugin had been up to
3) Bolas wanted to see what the Eldrazi were capable of and if he could use them in some way
4) Bolas enjoys screwing with Jace as a hobby (my personal favorite theory)
In any case, I'm sure his 'reason' will be made at least somewhat more clear, or retconned, with the next set to feature Eldrazi.
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The question we still don't know the answer to is "Does godhood transcend planar boundaries?" That is, if a planeswalker becomes a god on a given plane, and walks away, is that walker still a god upon arrival at the destination plane, or is divinity tied to the specific plane?
(Specifically, if Xenagos walked away right now to Zendikar, would he still be a god there? Or is he only a god so long as he's on Theros?
Because if he's still a god upon leaving Theros, the multiverse just got a dangerous new force to deal with, and he might be a Chekov's 'walker for future conflicts.)
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That's a good question. I guess it depends on whether Nyx's power is exclusive to Theros or if it functions like mana bonds. Considering the answer from Doug's blog was cagey, I'm guessing that will be a plot point. We'll just have to wait and see.
While I'm here, any news on a Theros block ebook?
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Explicitly said? It hasn't even been hinted at, which irritates me to no end.
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He set up events so that it would happen, but didn't count on Ugin, Sorin, and the nameless Lithomancer being intelligent and installing multiple locks.
Drops April 22, if I recall correctly. Title is Theros: Godsend. I linked it on another thread, but I'm Kindle posting right now so I'm too lazy to track it back down.
Here's the Amazon listing. I was right about the date.
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I think that one might be a little outdated at this time, because I could swear we were told the first part of the ebook was dropping REALLY soon.
To steer clear of baseless speculation, let's substitute Phantasmal Image for Phrexian Metalmorph. Since Tezzeret would be dealing with copies instead of the real deal, I don't think sentience would be a problem. Unless the Eldrazi conscripted it, thereby destroying the copy. Tezzeret could easily snare any of the Eldrazi in some Tangle Wire, though that's a temporary fix.