If you're only talking about playing against Elves, the Mirran Crusaders basically replace Flickerwisp. If not, then Flickerwisp is an add because it's better in other matchups and it gives you redundancy in the 3 power flyers.
Yea...that decklist above I would only play specifically against Combo Elves otherwise I would throw in Flickerwisp.
Against Elves, (I too have a friend who plays Elves), I swap out Thalia, Serra and batterskull for, canonist, spellskite, e.tutor, cage and holy light.
SoFaI is almost a go to over Jitte, the two damage trigger and card draw are both great. Once skite and mom are down viridian shaman is almost irrelevant.
On other news, I came third in my league top 8, so I came fourth in the swiss of 42 and 3 in the Top 8. I am pretty happy with this result.
In the top eight I quartered against patriot delver (2-1), I lost the first game, then he conceded turn two of game two after I landed a thalia and then he got smacked by an SoFaI, Jitte wearing Batterskull in game three. His finishing move was to punch the table, shriek loudly and almost burst into tears. He was consoled by a group of 'friends' who told him exactly when and what he stuffed up.
My semi was against Sneak and Show, oh the irony. Having written a meet them then beat them a few pages back, I completely forget about it and my advice and went into this game never having played against it before. I had 30 mins between games and I could have jumped back on here and reread it but no, that would have been too smart!
In the game I went 1-2. In game one, I kept a revoker hand and no karakas we showed turn two and his emrakul beat my revoker. Game two, thalia and karakas kept him out of the game. In game three I kept a hand with o-ring, waste land, canonist and revoker but no karakas. I played a minor error dropping canonist instead of wasting his sol land and he through the breached an emrakul and I simply never recovered from the annihilator trigger. Not sure if it lost me the game but it would have put some pressure on and given me an extra turn to look for things. He was packing three blood moons and had one in hand so he was pretty confident that karakas wasn't an issue.
I know we are strong in the MU but SotL would have really smashed him, he was cantripping like a, like a, well let's just say he cantripped plenty.
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Legacy
Death and Taxes
UG Infect
Strawberry Shortcake Imperial Painter
Against Elves, (I too have a friend who plays Elves), I swap out Thalia, Serra and batterskull for, canonist, spellskite, e.tutor, cage and holy light.
SoFaI is almost a go to over Jitte, the two damage trigger and card draw are both great. Once skite and mom are down viridian shaman is almost irrelevant.
On other news, I came third in my league top 8, so I came fourth in the swiss of 42 and 3 in the Top 8. I am pretty happy with this result.
In the top eight I quartered against patriot delver (2-1), I lost the first game, then he conceded turn two of game two after I landed a thalia and then he got smacked by an SoFaI, Jitte wearing Batterskull in game three. His finishing move was to punch the table, shriek loudly and almost burst into tears. He was consoled by a group of 'friends' who told him exactly when and what he stuffed up.
My semi was against Sneak and Show, oh the irony. Having written a meet them then beat them a few pages back, I completely forget about it and my advice and went into this game never having played against it before. I had 30 mins between games and I could have jumped back on here and reread it but no, that would have been too smart!
In the game I went 1-2. In game one, I kept a revoker hand and no karakas we showed turn two and his emrakul beat my revoker. Game two, thalia and karakas kept him out of the game. In game three I kept a hand with o-ring, waste land, canonist and revoker but no karakas. I played a minor error dropping canonist instead of wasting his sol land and he through the breached an emrakul and I simply never recovered from the annihilator trigger. Not sure if it lost me the game but it would have put some pressure on and given me an extra turn to look for things. He was packing three blood moons and had one in hand so he was pretty confident that karakas wasn't an issue.
I know we are strong in the MU but SotL would have really smashed him, he was cantripping like a, like a, well let's just say he cantripped plenty.
In game three I kept a hand with o-ring, waste land, canonist and revoker but no karakas. I played a minor error dropping canonist instead of wasting his sol land and he through the breached an emrakul and I simply never recovered from the annihilator trigger. .
I don't know if this is encompassed by what you said about not reviewing the forum before going in, but Canonist isn't really good vs the Sneak variety of Show and Tell as they don't really play a lot of spells in a turn.
How many Mystics do you run in your deck and what are your equipment cards? Umezawa's Jitte and SoFaI?
I use Kurpaska's list making the sideboarding a bit easier. I pick the least beatstick, in this case Serra, boot Thalia as she is almost useless and the remove batterskull. This gives me nine slots; 2 canonist, 2 holy light, 2 Spellskite, Grafdigger's, and an eTutor or two (I will confess this is my troll slot and I put in Elbrus the binding blade.
Game one you keep a hand with stp, revoker and aven mindscensor and hope for the best. Revoke, heritage, birch lore and wirewood. Chances are you will lose this one so keep off the tilt.
Game two, go with the board, keep a hand with cage and canonist then get out Spellskite and mom while smacking him with a mirran. If you lose, now you can tilt and flip the table, flip the bird or simply flip. I HATE ELVES!
Tricks
- vial I canonist in response to glimpse. "Pass turn"
- mindscensor in response to any tutor but you know this
- kill wirewood or revoke it
- holy light in response to NO or GSZ if he is going for CHB
- run four mirrans
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Death and Taxes
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Strawberry Shortcake Imperial Painter
I don't know if this is encompassed by what you said about not reviewing the forum before going in, but Canonist isn't really good vs the Sneak variety of Show and Tell as they don't really play a lot of spells in a turn.
I knew that but there are so many dead cards in this MU that I packed them anyway. He was cantripping a ridiculous amount in G1 that I figured they might contr this. I see you point though it was a dumb move should have wasted hi sol land, which he and everyone else gladly pointed out!
I knew that but there are so many dead cards in this MU that I packed them anyway. He was cantripping a ridiculous amount in G1 that I figured they might contr this. I see you point though it was a dumb move should have wasted hi sol land, which he and everyone else gladly pointed out!
Besides StP, what cards are dead...?
I can really only see a case for Mother, but she's still a point of damage and can blank Gbrand's lifelink on a flyer (which has won me games before).
The rest is a clock or a stall. Or in the extra crap mode bonus round: Annihilator fodder.
I will be the first to admit mistakes were made. TBH, I have never played against SaS before so I was a little on the "I wonder what that does" tilt already.
I will be the first to admit mistakes were made. TBH, I have never played against SaS before so I was a little on the "I wonder what that does" tilt already.
Yeah. Sorry, not meaning to berrate you. Just trying to figure out the thought process to help out. In my experiences, it's a rough matchup to get used to, but with the right mindset it is unloseable. Going back to Mother, when I got past my always keep her back for her ability hangup and started turning her sideways, I found that the extra points really did matter. In regards to Mirran Crusader, Pyroclasm be damned: Sneak Show is exactly one of the matchups he's super useful because he seals the game quickly.
Also, 100% try each avenue regardles of what anyone says so you can gain the experience.
Honestly, Canonist doesn't help against cantrips at all really; it just helps (slightly) against Tempo as they have to choose which instant speed plays to use. In a Cantrip matchup they'll simply Ponder their Turn, Brainstorm on yours. They still can do 2 per turn and find their win con while you punch with a Bear.
Thalia otoh reduces them to 1-rip per turn or 2 once they reach a lofty 4 mana, on top of slowing their win con. A thalia instead of a canonist would've bought you a turn and then you'd have wasted his land, leaving you with *at least* 2 more turns than you had. In fact, if it adds up right, it sounds like he also used a Lotus Petal, so you may have gotten 3 turns out of having the right 2 drop.
I know you said you realize it's a mistake, but it's literally the difference between an easy win (3 near time walks as an aggro/control deck) and you getting a 15 damage Obliterate to the face.
I know we are strong in the MU but SotL would have really smashed him, he was cantripping like a, like a, well let's just say he cantripped plenty.
Although DnT has a great matchup, its not unbeatable. That's hyperbole. Its very easy to lose due to their speed and power. They need only one opportunity to win. However, our deck is essentially pre-sided and its natural enemy.
As everyone has already stated, we are aggro/control here. The emphasis is on control. We should prioritize any chance we can take to deprive them of resources over attacking.
Game 2 and 3 get much harder. They will board in loads of Pyroclasms, Blood Moons and Through the Breaches. A smart Sneak Show player will not Show and Tell against you early fearing a Karakas, Ring, Mangara, etc. They tend to focus more heavily on Sneak Attack, hate cards and fetch only basic lands.
I would not attack with Mother games 2 and 3. We need to protect our Revokers and Thalias from SB Pyroclasms.
I too would have also kept the Serras over Crusaders. I like keeping my vial at 2 in this matchup.
Although DnT has a great matchup, its not unbeatable. That's hyperbole. Its very easy to lose due to their speed and power. They need only one opportunity to win. However, our deck is essentially pre-sided and its natural enemy.
As everyone has already stated, we are aggro/control here. The emphasis is on control. We should prioritize any chance we can take to deprive them of resources over attacking.
Game 2 and 3 get much harder. They will board in loads of Pyroclasms, Blood Moons and Through the Breaches. A smart Sneak Show player will not Show and Tell against you early fearing a Karakas, Ring, Mangara, etc. They tend to focus more heavily on Sneak Attack, hate cards and fetch only basic lands.
I would not attack with Mother games 2 and 3. We need to protect our Revokers and Thalias from SB Pyroclasms.
I too would have also kept the Serras over Crusaders. I like keeping my vial at 2 in this matchup.
Indeed, sometimes we just have the wrong hate (or even no hate) if we don't know what they're on. Revoker + StP is great against Grisel-B, not so strong against Emrakul. Or sometimes the SnT'ed in Revoker calls Grisel when Sneak Attack would have been better.
Guys, I am just so sad that I can't run 3 Mangara anymore. It's depressing.
Dunno. I don't think he would go in the main at this point, flying is still too important (heck... I can't even find room in the main for Spirit of the Labyrinth... but maybe cause I'm stubborn about cutting Mangara).
I was thinking about adding 2 to the sideboard. With Lands, Jund Depths, and Punishing Jund all being (imo) difficult matches for DnT, Jotun Grunt would do some serious work against those deck. It does a good job of dealing with Punishing Fire, it's Fire and Bolt Proof, and shrinks Goyf and takes away targets for Deathrite. Against the Depths and Land variants, it takes away their engine while still providing a clock. It definitely doesn't replace RIP in the board, but maybe would work well in addition to RIP. Was just giving it some thought as it seems very well positioned in the current metagame.
Dunno. I don't think he would go in the main at this point, flying is still too important (heck... I can't even find room in the main for Spirit of the Labyrinth... but maybe cause I'm stubborn about cutting Mangara).
I was thinking about adding 2 to the sideboard. With Lands, Jund Depths, and Punishing Jund all being (imo) difficult matches for DnT, Jotun Grunt would do some serious work against those deck. It does a good job of dealing with Punishing Fire, it's Fire and Bolt Proof, and shrinks Goyf and takes away targets for Deathrite. Against the Depths and Land variants, it takes away their engine while still providing a clock. It definitely doesn't replace RIP in the board, but maybe would work well in addition to RIP. Was just giving it some thought as it seems very well positioned in the current metagame.
Thoughts?
RIP already covers it and doesn't play well with Grunt. He's a G1 card, IMO.
@lormador: you see their S&T choice before you name with Revoker
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"Don't mess with me, lady. I've been drinking with skeletons."
-You definitely get to see the result of Show and Tell before naming with Revoker.
-I have been dinking around with the idea of a single Jotun Grunt in the main. I haven't committed to it or even bothered to consider all the details. But I like the size and the fact that having only one minimizes the likelihood of insufficient graveyards available considerably. It is not much for graveyard hate, really. I had one marathon match against Dredge a few years ago in which I went through two Grunts and had Mangara lock for maybe 6 turns. I eventually won the game, but it was not a simple matter.
-Against Elves, I occasionally find that if I board in lots of hate and effectively slow the game down, I actually do not have enough attack strength to close the deal because they still have plenty of little blockers. I see Spirit of the Labyrinth falling into this category too. I think that Canonist is going to be much better in the role of turning off Glimpse. But then Spirit also shuts off insect shenanigans for extra cards. That makes a big impact over a few games. I think I will want to side in Spirits for this matchup even though I am lukewarm about it in the main.
As some food for though, I run three Grunts main in a mono-white stoneblade build that borrows tactics heavily from D&T (you can see the whole build in the budget forum for context) and I'd be cautious and test it thoroughly before maindecking it.
Canonist, Thalia and all of your other tax effects that slow people down to a crawl means there's never really a ton of food for him to keep him relevant . And, D&T only really puts Swords in the graveyard on its own, which makes it even tougher. That are only a few decks that reliably fill their graveyards enough, and D&T is already pretty good against a lot of those - Delver, Reanimator- , right?
I think the follow up question to the current discussion is: "Is a 1-of Jotun Grunt better or worse than a 1-of Brimaz?"
My gut says that the Brimaz would likely be better, as it can be protected with Karakas; however, with the increasing popularity of Loam based decks and Reanimator/Dredge, I could definitely see the other side of the argument. It's not like Grunt is usually hitting play on turn 2, and I think in the long grind, I'd rather have Brimaz.
Yea...that decklist above I would only play specifically against Combo Elves otherwise I would throw in Flickerwisp.
SoFaI is almost a go to over Jitte, the two damage trigger and card draw are both great. Once skite and mom are down viridian shaman is almost irrelevant.
On other news, I came third in my league top 8, so I came fourth in the swiss of 42 and 3 in the Top 8. I am pretty happy with this result.
In the top eight I quartered against patriot delver (2-1), I lost the first game, then he conceded turn two of game two after I landed a thalia and then he got smacked by an SoFaI, Jitte wearing Batterskull in game three. His finishing move was to punch the table, shriek loudly and almost burst into tears. He was consoled by a group of 'friends' who told him exactly when and what he stuffed up.
My semi was against Sneak and Show, oh the irony. Having written a meet them then beat them a few pages back, I completely forget about it and my advice and went into this game never having played against it before. I had 30 mins between games and I could have jumped back on here and reread it but no, that would have been too smart!
In the game I went 1-2. In game one, I kept a revoker hand and no karakas we showed turn two and his emrakul beat my revoker. Game two, thalia and karakas kept him out of the game. In game three I kept a hand with o-ring, waste land, canonist and revoker but no karakas. I played a minor error dropping canonist instead of wasting his sol land and he through the breached an emrakul and I simply never recovered from the annihilator trigger. Not sure if it lost me the game but it would have put some pressure on and given me an extra turn to look for things. He was packing three blood moons and had one in hand so he was pretty confident that karakas wasn't an issue.
I know we are strong in the MU but SotL would have really smashed him, he was cantripping like a, like a, well let's just say he cantripped plenty.
Death and Taxes
UG Infect
Strawberry Shortcake Imperial Painter
EDH
Angus Mackenzie - Enduring Enchantments
Adun Oakenshield - Jund F'ing Good Stuff, "Money Vault"
Eight-and-a-Half-Tails - Captain Crunch
On the Combo Elves...so using Spellskite over Serra Avenger and Batterskull over Holy Light are more useful and effective in your play experience?
How many Mystics do you run in your deck and what are your equipment cards? Umezawa's Jitte and SoFaI?
I don't know if this is encompassed by what you said about not reviewing the forum before going in, but Canonist isn't really good vs the Sneak variety of Show and Tell as they don't really play a lot of spells in a turn.
I use Kurpaska's list making the sideboarding a bit easier. I pick the least beatstick, in this case Serra, boot Thalia as she is almost useless and the remove batterskull. This gives me nine slots; 2 canonist, 2 holy light, 2 Spellskite, Grafdigger's, and an eTutor or two (I will confess this is my troll slot and I put in Elbrus the binding blade.
Game one you keep a hand with stp, revoker and aven mindscensor and hope for the best. Revoke, heritage, birch lore and wirewood. Chances are you will lose this one so keep off the tilt.
Game two, go with the board, keep a hand with cage and canonist then get out Spellskite and mom while smacking him with a mirran. If you lose, now you can tilt and flip the table, flip the bird or simply flip. I HATE ELVES!
Tricks
- vial I canonist in response to glimpse. "Pass turn"
- mindscensor in response to any tutor but you know this
- kill wirewood or revoke it
- holy light in response to NO or GSZ if he is going for CHB
- run four mirrans
Death and Taxes
UG Infect
Strawberry Shortcake Imperial Painter
EDH
Angus Mackenzie - Enduring Enchantments
Adun Oakenshield - Jund F'ing Good Stuff, "Money Vault"
Eight-and-a-Half-Tails - Captain Crunch
I knew that but there are so many dead cards in this MU that I packed them anyway. He was cantripping a ridiculous amount in G1 that I figured they might contr this. I see you point though it was a dumb move should have wasted hi sol land, which he and everyone else gladly pointed out!
Death and Taxes
UG Infect
Strawberry Shortcake Imperial Painter
EDH
Angus Mackenzie - Enduring Enchantments
Adun Oakenshield - Jund F'ing Good Stuff, "Money Vault"
Eight-and-a-Half-Tails - Captain Crunch
Besides StP, what cards are dead...?
I can really only see a case for Mother, but she's still a point of damage and can blank Gbrand's lifelink on a flyer (which has won me games before).
The rest is a clock or a stall. Or in the extra crap mode bonus round: Annihilator fodder.
I will be the first to admit mistakes were made. TBH, I have never played against SaS before so I was a little on the "I wonder what that does" tilt already.
Death and Taxes
UG Infect
Strawberry Shortcake Imperial Painter
EDH
Angus Mackenzie - Enduring Enchantments
Adun Oakenshield - Jund F'ing Good Stuff, "Money Vault"
Eight-and-a-Half-Tails - Captain Crunch
Yeah. Sorry, not meaning to berrate you. Just trying to figure out the thought process to help out. In my experiences, it's a rough matchup to get used to, but with the right mindset it is unloseable. Going back to Mother, when I got past my always keep her back for her ability hangup and started turning her sideways, I found that the extra points really did matter. In regards to Mirran Crusader, Pyroclasm be damned: Sneak Show is exactly one of the matchups he's super useful because he seals the game quickly.
Also, 100% try each avenue regardles of what anyone says so you can gain the experience.
Death and Taxes
UG Infect
Strawberry Shortcake Imperial Painter
EDH
Angus Mackenzie - Enduring Enchantments
Adun Oakenshield - Jund F'ing Good Stuff, "Money Vault"
Eight-and-a-Half-Tails - Captain Crunch
Thalia otoh reduces them to 1-rip per turn or 2 once they reach a lofty 4 mana, on top of slowing their win con. A thalia instead of a canonist would've bought you a turn and then you'd have wasted his land, leaving you with *at least* 2 more turns than you had. In fact, if it adds up right, it sounds like he also used a Lotus Petal, so you may have gotten 3 turns out of having the right 2 drop.
I know you said you realize it's a mistake, but it's literally the difference between an easy win (3 near time walks as an aggro/control deck) and you getting a 15 damage Obliterate to the face.
Look, Fetch, Draw, Look
Draw
Fetch
Look
Although DnT has a great matchup, its not unbeatable. That's hyperbole. Its very easy to lose due to their speed and power. They need only one opportunity to win. However, our deck is essentially pre-sided and its natural enemy.
As everyone has already stated, we are aggro/control here. The emphasis is on control. We should prioritize any chance we can take to deprive them of resources over attacking.
Game 2 and 3 get much harder. They will board in loads of Pyroclasms, Blood Moons and Through the Breaches. A smart Sneak Show player will not Show and Tell against you early fearing a Karakas, Ring, Mangara, etc. They tend to focus more heavily on Sneak Attack, hate cards and fetch only basic lands.
I would not attack with Mother games 2 and 3. We need to protect our Revokers and Thalias from SB Pyroclasms.
I too would have also kept the Serras over Crusaders. I like keeping my vial at 2 in this matchup.
Maaaaaybe. What would you cut?
Currently playing:
Legacy
WW Death and Taxes(Rest in Peace)EDH
RR Krenko, Mob Boss
WW Thalia, Heretic Cathar
Indeed, sometimes we just have the wrong hate (or even no hate) if we don't know what they're on. Revoker + StP is great against Grisel-B, not so strong against Emrakul. Or sometimes the SnT'ed in Revoker calls Grisel when Sneak Attack would have been better.
Guys, I am just so sad that I can't run 3 Mangara anymore. It's depressing.
Overall record: 139-98-15
Total number of matches: 252
Win percentage ignoring draws: 58.649789
Win percentage including draws: 55.158730
Dunno. I don't think he would go in the main at this point, flying is still too important (heck... I can't even find room in the main for Spirit of the Labyrinth... but maybe cause I'm stubborn about cutting Mangara).
I was thinking about adding 2 to the sideboard. With Lands, Jund Depths, and Punishing Jund all being (imo) difficult matches for DnT, Jotun Grunt would do some serious work against those deck. It does a good job of dealing with Punishing Fire, it's Fire and Bolt Proof, and shrinks Goyf and takes away targets for Deathrite. Against the Depths and Land variants, it takes away their engine while still providing a clock. It definitely doesn't replace RIP in the board, but maybe would work well in addition to RIP. Was just giving it some thought as it seems very well positioned in the current metagame.
Thoughts?
RIP already covers it and doesn't play well with Grunt. He's a G1 card, IMO.
@lormador: you see their S&T choice before you name with Revoker
Currently playing:
Legacy
WW Death and Taxes(Rest in Peace)EDH
RR Krenko, Mob Boss
WW Thalia, Heretic Cathar
Overall record: 139-98-15
Total number of matches: 252
Win percentage ignoring draws: 58.649789
Win percentage including draws: 55.158730
Good point, thanks for the feedback.
I had a judge recently confirm I get to see the card they play with Show and Tell before naming a card with Revoker.
This is the most comprehensive explanation I could dig up. I think I am correct and that your judges may need to brush up on their rules.
Currently playing:
Legacy
WW Death and Taxes(Rest in Peace)EDH
RR Krenko, Mob Boss
WW Thalia, Heretic Cathar
-I have been dinking around with the idea of a single Jotun Grunt in the main. I haven't committed to it or even bothered to consider all the details. But I like the size and the fact that having only one minimizes the likelihood of insufficient graveyards available considerably. It is not much for graveyard hate, really. I had one marathon match against Dredge a few years ago in which I went through two Grunts and had Mangara lock for maybe 6 turns. I eventually won the game, but it was not a simple matter.
-Against Elves, I occasionally find that if I board in lots of hate and effectively slow the game down, I actually do not have enough attack strength to close the deal because they still have plenty of little blockers. I see Spirit of the Labyrinth falling into this category too. I think that Canonist is going to be much better in the role of turning off Glimpse. But then Spirit also shuts off insect shenanigans for extra cards. That makes a big impact over a few games. I think I will want to side in Spirits for this matchup even though I am lukewarm about it in the main.
Currently playing:
Legacy
WW Death and Taxes(Rest in Peace)EDH
RR Krenko, Mob Boss
WW Thalia, Heretic Cathar
Canonist, Thalia and all of your other tax effects that slow people down to a crawl means there's never really a ton of food for him to keep him relevant . And, D&T only really puts Swords in the graveyard on its own, which makes it even tougher. That are only a few decks that reliably fill their graveyards enough, and D&T is already pretty good against a lot of those - Delver, Reanimator- , right?
My gut says that the Brimaz would likely be better, as it can be protected with Karakas; however, with the increasing popularity of Loam based decks and Reanimator/Dredge, I could definitely see the other side of the argument. It's not like Grunt is usually hitting play on turn 2, and I think in the long grind, I'd rather have Brimaz.