The importance of Avenger over any other beater can be summed up in three little letters: T. N. N.
The advent of True-Name Nemesis by every "fair" deck in the format running blue has forced us to run at least a good amount of fliers (Avenger and Flickerwisp), in addition to the re-inclusion of Sword of Fire and Ice in order to simply get around the mini-Progenitus.
I am currently running the "pure beater" suite of 2 Mirran Crusader, 3 Serra Avenger, and will be replacing the 2 Crusaders with 2 Lionidas, and will be removing my 2 Aven Mindcensors for 2 Spirit of the Labyrinth. Since there will be a grand total of 5 creatures in the deck that cost more than 2 mana, I'm very tempted to at least try trimming a 23rd land in lieu of the third Spirit.
Anyway, that should about cover why Avenger is so important right now as well as where Brimaz is going in the deck, at least for some of us.
Hey all, new to the thread but a long time player of D&T. on the issue of lands; I have been playing a list with 22 lands for quite awhile. And mulligans are rarely an issue. I find mana is easy to come by, though there is that one case where you cant seem to find a second white source. but 22 lands has worked well for me
I'm not saying it's the right way to go. I'm just saying it's possible and something to think about if the curve gets lowered because of Spirit of Labyrinth.
22 lands actually worked OK for me in older versions, where Mangara and Wisp were the only 3 drops and you rarely planned on hard casting them. However, this gameplan makes you more reliant on Vial. And I don't want to be relying on T1 Vial when 75% of the metagame plays Daze, Decay, or can flatly ignore a T1 Vial.
The other problem with 22 lands is that it weakens your Ports. You will find, over time, that you simply don't have the mana to sink into them anymore.
I have heard vague rumors of a moustache-dispensing vending machine in a distant laundromat, across the street from a tattoo parlor. However, this information is shaky, and time is of the essence.
22 lands actually worked OK for me in older versions, where Mangara and Wisp were the only 3 drops and you rarely planned on hard casting them. However, this gameplan makes you more reliant on Vial. And I don't want to be relying on T1 Vial when 75% of the metagame plays Daze, Decay, or can flatly ignore a T1 Vial.
The other problem with 22 lands is that it weakens your Ports. You will find, over time, that you simply don't have the mana to sink into them anymore.
The Daze/Abrupt Decay argument makes perfect sense. I'll stick to 23. Thanks for the input!!
After getting bored and frustrated with my Goblins deck, and realizing that I had the Wastelands, Ports, Vials, Thalias, Rest In Peace and Ethersworn Canonists, I decided to take the plunge, sell off a few expensive cards, pick up some Karakas, and go to town.
I got to play last Tuesday night, and have to say the deck is an absolute blast. While I'm still getting used to piloting the deck (I'm running this: http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=61241, -2 Horizon Canopy, +1 Plains, +1 Mistveil Plains), some highlights from Tuesday were:
- Match 1, round 1 against Affinity, T2 Revoker naming Cranial Plating, T3 Revoker naming Arcbound Ravager, the guy looked positively crestfallen.
- Match 1, round 3, the guy tries to sacrifice his Ravager to itself to buff an Etched Champion, and doesn't notice I have a Spellskite out. "In response..."
- Match 3, round 2 against UR Delver, my Batterskull gets Smashed to Smithereens, and I only have two lands free (one of them being Mistveil Plains), plus a Thalia and Stoneforge Mystic out. End of his turn, I use Mistveil to tuck the Batterskull, beginning of my turn I Flickerwisp my own SFM for another shot at Batterskull, and go on to grind it out.
Match 2 was a surprise - B/G Thespian Depths with Pithing Needle and Not of This World in the main board.
Round 1, I started with a plains and a Vial, he drops an Urborg and a Pithing Needle naming Wasteland. Holding a Wasteland, and drawing a second one, I was a little irked. I retorted by dropping a T2 Revoker naming Vampire Hexmage, and *he* retorted with a second Pithing Needle naming Vial.
I dropped a SFM for Batterskull (because why not, and my flyers/Flickerwisps/remaining Revokers were nowhere to be seen), and eventually he was able to get a third Needle on Karakas, and a Crop Rotate to fetch Thespian's Stage and go off with it.
I *still* had two Swords to Plowshares in my hand, so I figure I'll just give hiim 20 life and try to grind him down. He ends up having two Not of This World in his hand, and is able to counter both of my StP. Did *not* see that coming. On to game 2!
Game 2 I did:
+ 1 O-Ring, +1 PtE, +2 Ratchet Bombs for the Pithing Needles, +1 Pithing Needle in case of emergency, +2 Enlightened Tutor for
-4 SFM, -3 equipment
I may have overboarded, or boarded incorrectly, but it was all kind of pointless, because he had a great opening hand, and I had to mulligan to 5 to get a hand worth keeping.
My Revoker on his Hex Mage got Abrupt Decayed, and the O-Ring I tutored for on T2 got hit with Not of This World, and that was pretty much that.
TL;DR: I was not expecting a deck to maindeck 4 Pithing Needles and play the Revoke game as well as this deck did. Apparently he also had Revokers in his side board as well?
I hadn't seen a deck like this before, is this something developing? I've seend Jund Depths, but not B/G Depths like this.
I absolutely love this deck, the synnergy in the deck is great, and I can't wait to play again in a few weeks when my Spirit of the Labyrinths arrive.
@lands
Mulligans are not the primary issue with 22 lands. You need enough to be able to use Wasteland and not be hamstrung. You need to be able to Port on upkeep and still have enough to use Stoneforge Mystic. You have to be able to cast Mangara and still have Karakas untapped in turn 4. This deck has an awful lot of uses for its lands that keep them occupied. When you are having to tap them for mana because you did not draw enough, it diminishes the effectiveness of the deck.
@new players: Looking forward to hearing some new opinions.
@Mangara siding out: I think players side out Mangara far too often. Way, way too much. The only matchups he is not dynamite in are those that are too fast: storm, goblins, merfolk, belcher, that's about all I can think of. Opponents immediately look at their hand for an out when he hits the table. Go ahead and watch next time. I play 4 Karakas, 3 Mangara, and I get the soft lock all the time, and it takes over games.
@Spirit of the Labyrinth: The issue I see, and what will only be solved with testing, is whether the benefits you see from hosing blue even more than we currently do is worth the additional difficulties encountered from the nonblue decks by including the Spirit. My guess is "yes", which means I suspect that this creature will be rather effective at living up to its billing (in large part due to its 3 damage), and that blue decks will, for now, continue to make up such a large percentage of the field - especially the higher tables.
My hope is that it will be a strong enough switch that we can shave some spots in the sideboard from decks that have blue in favor of extra hate directed at those decks that do not. What cards would be handy for Jund if we had more space?
It is possible that if we can be fast enough, Spirit might actually be ok against Jund anyway. 3 damage is not puny. It kills anything that blocks it. Not terrible. But this entire approach is only worth it if the Spirit is actually good.
Also, if opponents ever start going to fast combo, I have often considered Elvish Spirit Guide in the sideboard to make our hate come out on turn 1. Just a thought.
After getting bored and frustrated with my Goblins deck, and realizing that I had the Wastelands, Ports, Vials, Thalias, Rest In Peace and Ethersworn Canonists, I decided to take the plunge, sell off a few expensive cards, pick up some Karakas, and go to town.
I got to play last Tuesday night, and have to say the deck is an absolute blast. While I'm still getting used to piloting the deck (I'm running this: http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=61241, -2 Horizon Canopy, +1 Plains, +1 Mistveil Plains), some highlights from Tuesday were:
- Match 1, round 1 against Affinity, T2 Revoker naming Cranial Plating, T3 Revoker naming Arcbound Ravager, the guy looked positively crestfallen.
- Match 1, round 3, the guy tries to sacrifice his Ravager to itself to buff an Etched Champion, and doesn't notice I have a Spellskite out. "In response..."
- Match 3, round 2 against UR Delver, my Batterskull gets Smashed to Smithereens, and I only have two lands free (one of them being Mistveil Plains), plus a Thalia and Stoneforge Mystic out. End of his turn, I use Mistveil to tuck the Batterskull, beginning of my turn I Flickerwisp my own SFM for another shot at Batterskull, and go on to grind it out.
Match 2 was a surprise - B/G Thespian Depths with Pithing Needle and Not of This World in the main board.
Round 1, I started with a plains and a Vial, he drops an Urborg and a Pithing Needle naming Wasteland. Holding a Wasteland, and drawing a second one, I was a little irked. I retorted by dropping a T2 Revoker naming Vampire Hexmage, and *he* retorted with a second Pithing Needle naming Vial.
I dropped a SFM for Batterskull (because why not, and my flyers/Flickerwisps/remaining Revokers were nowhere to be seen), and eventually he was able to get a third Needle on Karakas, and a Crop Rotate to fetch Thespian's Stage and go off with it.
I *still* had two Swords to Plowshares in my hand, so I figure I'll just give hiim 20 life and try to grind him down. He ends up having two Not of This World in his hand, and is able to counter both of my StP. Did *not* see that coming. On to game 2!
Game 2 I did:
+ 1 O-Ring, +1 PtE, +2 Ratchet Bombs for the Pithing Needles, +1 Pithing Needle in case of emergency, +2 Enlightened Tutor for
-4 SFM, -3 equipment
I may have overboarded, or boarded incorrectly, but it was all kind of pointless, because he had a great opening hand, and I had to mulligan to 5 to get a hand worth keeping.
My Revoker on his Hex Mage got Abrupt Decayed, and the O-Ring I tutored for on T2 got hit with Not of This World, and that was pretty much that.
TL;DR: I was not expecting a deck to maindeck 4 Pithing Needles and play the Revoke game as well as this deck did. Apparently he also had Revokers in his side board as well?
I hadn't seen a deck like this before, is this something developing? I've seend Jund Depths, but not B/G Depths like this.
I absolutely love this deck, the synnergy in the deck is great, and I can't wait to play again in a few weeks when my Spirit of the Labyrinths arrive.
Holy **** I'm famous. This made my day.
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Commission Rezombied to alter some cards, he's awesome!
Finn I know you're probably just wishing in theory about those Spirit-Guides...but as it stands right now D&T has one of the strongest SB packages in the entire Legacy category...I can see your point, but lets just stay firm...we already have the powers in blue scared for their lives.
The dude that mentioned Brainstorm possibly falling off the radar, wake up from your dream bud...that'll never happen, D@T is just one archetype in a large pool of water...but wouldn't that be nice if the best tempo draw spell in Legacy was gone ;).
@lands
Mulligans are not the primary issue with 22 lands. You need enough to be able to use Wasteland and not be hamstrung. You need to be able to Port on upkeep and still have enough to use Stoneforge Mystic. You have to be able to cast Mangara and still have Karakas untapped in turn 4. This deck has an awful lot of uses for its lands that keep them occupied. When you are having to tap them for mana because you did not draw enough, it diminishes the effectiveness of the deck.
@new players: Looking forward to hearing some new opinions.
@Mangara siding out: I think players side out Mangara far too often. Way, way too much. The only matchups he is not dynamite in are those that are too fast: storm, goblins, merfolk, belcher, that's about all I can think of. Opponents immediately look at their hand for an out when he hits the table. Go ahead and watch next time. I play 4 Karakas, 3 Mangara, and I get the soft lock all the time, and it takes over games.
@Spirit of the Labyrinth: The issue I see, and what will only be solved with testing, is whether the benefits you see from hosing blue even more than we currently do is worth the additional difficulties encountered from the nonblue decks by including the Spirit. My guess is "yes", which means I suspect that this creature will be rather effective at living up to its billing (in large part due to its 3 damage), and that blue decks will, for now, continue to make up such a large percentage of the field - especially the higher tables.
My hope is that it will be a strong enough switch that we can shave some spots in the sideboard from decks that have blue in favor of extra hate directed at those decks that do not. What cards would be handy for Jund if we had more space?
It is possible that if we can be fast enough, Spirit might actually be ok against Jund anyway. 3 damage is not puny. It kills anything that blocks it. Not terrible. But this entire approach is only worth it if the Spirit is actually good.
Also, if opponents ever start going to fast combo, I have often considered Elvish Spirit Guide in the sideboard to make our hate come out on turn 1. Just a thought.
Also I would like to point out that while Brimaz looks impressive on paper, I'm not convinced on his usefulness in this deck. While he dodges bolt and is legendary, his abilities all depend on the combat phase and thus, on the opponent's decisions. He doesn't grant your other creatures vigilance, nor has a blink trigger. In the current meta I'd rather run Restoration Angel. Also keep in mind that a -1/-1 effect shuts him down. Also he doesn't fly! In the current meta I can only see him running into a TNN or getting blown up by RandomRemoval#218970410 against Jund.
SotL is a card that I like a lot but I'd rather have her as a 2/2 than a 3/1. Will still run her in the maindeck. Also can be tutored with Enlightened Tutor, which is a huge bonus in combo matchups.
My hope is that it will be a strong enough switch that we can shave some spots in the sideboard from decks that have blue in favor of extra hate directed at those decks that do not. What cards would be handy for Jund if we had more space?
I haven't played a single game in maybe half a year by now so I don't know how the meta and opposing lists have evolved meanwhile, but I'd wager Paladin en-Vec is still a very nice creature to have on board against Jund. They should reprint him with another minor ability as legendary for WW or something.
Also I would like to point out that while Brimaz looks impressive on paper, I'm not convinced on his usefulness in this deck. While he dodges bolt and is legendary, his abilities all depend on the combat phase and thus, on the opponent's decisions. He doesn't grant your other creatures vigilance, nor has a blink trigger. In the current meta I'd rather run Restoration Angel. Also keep in mind that a -1/-1 effect shuts him down. Also he doesn't fly! In the current meta I can only see him running into a TNN or getting blown up by RandomRemoval#218970410 against Jund.
SotL is a card that I like a lot but I'd rather have her as a 2/2 than a 3/1. Will still run her in the maindeck. Also can be tutored with Enlightened Tutor, which is a huge bonus in combo matchups.
Random removal being... just abrupt decay? Which they use on RiP/Vial/Swords/anything else relevant?
And -1/-1 effects don't shut him down--at least the ones in vogue. Golgari Charm and Zealous Persecution are the popular sweepers right now, with DoN trailing (only in ANT, tbh). E plague requires them to name soldier, which sucks, but leaves Mom intact.
I'm unconvinced.
@Finn: so, will you maintain the 3 Mangara post-BNG? I'm curious how you board as well if you do keep him in as much as you do. I actually love mango man, but I have had a hard time justifying him.
I haven't played a single game in maybe half a year by now so I don't know how the meta and opposing lists have evolved meanwhile, but I'd wager Paladin en-Vec is still a very nice creature to have on board against Jund. They should reprint him with another minor ability as legendary for WW or something.
I feel that Mirran Crusader is just better than Paladin en-Vec in that regard. Tarmogoyf will slap the paladin silly.
A few notes. I don't mind going down to 3 Revokers so long as Mangara is in the main as another "answer" to problematic permanents. The flier count in this list is low, so TNN could be an issue. However, if your opponent decides to start attacking with TNN, Spirit does very well on the swing back with his 3 power given they don't have other blockers on the board (but that's a big IF).
I don't know. I'm still messing around with numbers and whatnot. The low flier count is my main concern right now. Cutting Serra Avenger just doesn't feel right, but I feel that Brimaz fills the beatstick slot very well.
You're going to miss Serra Avenger bud...unless your meta isn't a truly competitive one...I would get her back in. Which brings us back to the Mythic cat, I just don't feel him now that Spirit has been spoiled...but time will tell.
You can Cut Flickerwisp down to 3 never the less, and I'm on the fence with regards to Mangara as I tend to drop her completely these days (I know all the tricks, I know all the pros, but right now I would rather go with the more consistent route that can be found on Thecouncil).
A few notes. I don't mind going down to 3 Revokers so long as Mangara is in the main as another "answer" to problematic permanents. The flier count in this list is low, so TNN could be an issue. However, if your opponent decides to start attacking with TNN, Spirit does very well on the swing back with his 3 power given they don't have other blockers on the board (but that's a big IF).
I don't know. I'm still messing around with numbers and whatnot. The low flier count is my main concern right now. Cutting Serra Avenger just doesn't feel right, but I feel that Brimaz fills the beatstick slot very well.
You're going to miss Serra Avenger bud...unless your meta isn't a truly competitive one...I would get her back in. Which brings us back to the Mythic cat, I just don't feel him now that Spirit has been spoiled...but time will tell.
You can Cut Flickerwisp down to 3 never the less, and I'm on the fence with regards to Mangara as I tend to drop her completely these days (I know all the tricks, I know all the pros, but right now I would rather go with the more consistent route that can be found on Thecouncil).
S.M.
I love Serra Avenger, I'm just messing around with some ideas.
I'm considering one, tutor board and Mistveil plains. With 4 flagstones to get mist veil.
I am looking forward to seeing brimaz in action, I do think our beaters are strong already but there is nothing like that new car(d) smell! Oh, and I am also putting baton of morale and meek stone in the board.
Drew Levin wrote an interesting article on SCG called "Spirit of the Labyrinth" (creative huh?) where he actually proposed cutting Thalia for Spirit in Death and Taxes and goes over the scenarios in which one is better than the other.
The idea itself is a hard one to swallow, but he does make some good points. Most notably how Thalia and Vial are kind of at odds with each other. If Revoker and Spirit are your dedicated "hatebears" then you're actually maximizing your Vial usage every game.
Anyway, only time and testing will determine the best way to use David Bowie. It was a good read though and definitely worth checking out.
Oh, and I am also putting baton of morale and meek stone in the board.
Baton of Morale, because our deck didn't already generate enough "Judge!" calls.
Personally, I'll be running 3 Spirit of the Labyrinth in my 75, two in the main and one in the side. As far as uber-cat is concerned, I need to play games to tell for sure; I love the idea of having a beater that I can protect with Karakas. I too have been giving a good hard look at Meekstone, which was already pretty good pre-BNG.
One last thought, given the increasing popularity of Dark Depths in various forms, I believe having 4 Flickerwisp is very important in the current metagame.
Drew Levin wrote an interesting article on SCG called "Spirit of the Labyrinth" (creative huh?) where he actually proposed cutting Thalia for Spirit in Death and Taxes and goes over the scenarios in which one is better than the other.
To me, that sounds like one of the worst ideas (in regard to MtG) ever published.
I don't think you'll be that upset to have a vial costing if that means you already played a Thalia and she stuck, but that's just my inexperienced, non pro-player take on things.
My best interpretation of what Levin was trying to say was that Revoker and Spirit of the Labyrinth are maybe most oppressive as stack tricks, where Thalia wants to be deployed as a Sorcery ideally when the opponent is tapped out and then has full reign over their following turn. This "tension" thing is digging though. Rarely is it wrong to get Thalia out even if it's not a trick. If it stays chances are whatever you wanted to deactivate with Phyrexian Revoker is taxed and set back from coming down a turn anyway (Jace, Lili, Jitte+Equip, etc). The idea of dropping Thalia is laughably bad.
Drew Levin's point wasn't that Aether Vial costing an extra mana was an issue, but that Thalia isn't a card that synergizes well with a vial activation on 2. Thalia is a card you always vial in on your turn, because we cannot vial her in response to a spell to make it cost more. However, you can vial a Spirit of the Labyrinth in response to a Brainstorm, just like you can vial a Revoker in response to your opponent casting a Sneak Attack or a Jace.
To me, that sounds like one of the worst ideas (in regard to MtG) ever published.
Ignoring the hyperbole, regardless of how bad of an idea it is, we don't learn things by doing the same thing over and over again. Sometimes we have to try something different. For the record, he wasn't even saying that we should replace Thalia with Spirit, the implication was that the two cards are fighting for spots in the deck, and thus Drew Levin evaluated the situations where each card was better or worse. And I think he's correct in his evaluation.
Drew Levin's point wasn't that Aether Vial costing an extra mana was an issue, but that Thalia isn't a card that synergizes well with a vial activation on 2. Thalia is a card you always vial in on your turn, because we cannot vial her in response to a spell to make it cost more. However, you can vial a Spirit of the Labyrinth in response to a Brainstorm, just like you can vial a Revoker in response to your opponent casting a Sneak Attack or a Jace.
Exactly!
Personally, I feel that Thalia and Spirit both belong in the deck and work well side-by-side. They both attack similar strategies (except Elves where Spirit shines and Thalia is meh). Since they attack similar strategies and Thalia is Legendary, I could see running 4 Spirit and 3 Thalia, which will mitigate the issue of having multiple Thalias stuck in your hand and help maximize your Vial activations.
At this point, running 4 Spirit sounds appealing. In the game 1 matches were Spirit isn't taxing their deck, it's still a very effective beater. I think 4 Spirit can be added to the deck by cutting 1X Thalia, 2X Mindcensor, and 1X?.
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The advent of True-Name Nemesis by every "fair" deck in the format running blue has forced us to run at least a good amount of fliers (Avenger and Flickerwisp), in addition to the re-inclusion of Sword of Fire and Ice in order to simply get around the mini-Progenitus.
I am currently running the "pure beater" suite of 2 Mirran Crusader, 3 Serra Avenger, and will be replacing the 2 Crusaders with 2 Lionidas, and will be removing my 2 Aven Mindcensors for 2 Spirit of the Labyrinth. Since there will be a grand total of 5 creatures in the deck that cost more than 2 mana, I'm very tempted to at least try trimming a 23rd land in lieu of the third Spirit.
Anyway, that should about cover why Avenger is so important right now as well as where Brimaz is going in the deck, at least for some of us.
I'm not saying it's the right way to go. I'm just saying it's possible and something to think about if the curve gets lowered because of Spirit of Labyrinth.
Here is a list I referenced for an example of a 22 land manabase (and this was before the new Legend rule). http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=9230&iddeck=67421
The other problem with 22 lands is that it weakens your Ports. You will find, over time, that you simply don't have the mana to sink into them anymore.
The Daze/Abrupt Decay argument makes perfect sense. I'll stick to 23. Thanks for the input!!
After getting bored and frustrated with my Goblins deck, and realizing that I had the Wastelands, Ports, Vials, Thalias, Rest In Peace and Ethersworn Canonists, I decided to take the plunge, sell off a few expensive cards, pick up some Karakas, and go to town.
I got to play last Tuesday night, and have to say the deck is an absolute blast. While I'm still getting used to piloting the deck (I'm running this: http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=61241, -2 Horizon Canopy, +1 Plains, +1 Mistveil Plains), some highlights from Tuesday were:
- Match 1, round 1 against Affinity, T2 Revoker naming Cranial Plating, T3 Revoker naming Arcbound Ravager, the guy looked positively crestfallen.
- Match 1, round 3, the guy tries to sacrifice his Ravager to itself to buff an Etched Champion, and doesn't notice I have a Spellskite out. "In response..."
- Match 3, round 2 against UR Delver, my Batterskull gets Smashed to Smithereens, and I only have two lands free (one of them being Mistveil Plains), plus a Thalia and Stoneforge Mystic out. End of his turn, I use Mistveil to tuck the Batterskull, beginning of my turn I Flickerwisp my own SFM for another shot at Batterskull, and go on to grind it out.
Match 2 was a surprise - B/G Thespian Depths with Pithing Needle and Not of This World in the main board.
Round 1, I started with a plains and a Vial, he drops an Urborg and a Pithing Needle naming Wasteland. Holding a Wasteland, and drawing a second one, I was a little irked. I retorted by dropping a T2 Revoker naming Vampire Hexmage, and *he* retorted with a second Pithing Needle naming Vial.
I dropped a SFM for Batterskull (because why not, and my flyers/Flickerwisps/remaining Revokers were nowhere to be seen), and eventually he was able to get a third Needle on Karakas, and a Crop Rotate to fetch Thespian's Stage and go off with it.
I *still* had two Swords to Plowshares in my hand, so I figure I'll just give hiim 20 life and try to grind him down. He ends up having two Not of This World in his hand, and is able to counter both of my StP. Did *not* see that coming. On to game 2!
Game 2 I did:
+ 1 O-Ring, +1 PtE, +2 Ratchet Bombs for the Pithing Needles, +1 Pithing Needle in case of emergency, +2 Enlightened Tutor for
-4 SFM, -3 equipment
I may have overboarded, or boarded incorrectly, but it was all kind of pointless, because he had a great opening hand, and I had to mulligan to 5 to get a hand worth keeping.
My Revoker on his Hex Mage got Abrupt Decayed, and the O-Ring I tutored for on T2 got hit with Not of This World, and that was pretty much that.
TL;DR: I was not expecting a deck to maindeck 4 Pithing Needles and play the Revoke game as well as this deck did. Apparently he also had Revokers in his side board as well?
I hadn't seen a deck like this before, is this something developing? I've seend Jund Depths, but not B/G Depths like this.
I absolutely love this deck, the synnergy in the deck is great, and I can't wait to play again in a few weeks when my Spirit of the Labyrinths arrive.
Mulligans are not the primary issue with 22 lands. You need enough to be able to use Wasteland and not be hamstrung. You need to be able to Port on upkeep and still have enough to use Stoneforge Mystic. You have to be able to cast Mangara and still have Karakas untapped in turn 4. This deck has an awful lot of uses for its lands that keep them occupied. When you are having to tap them for mana because you did not draw enough, it diminishes the effectiveness of the deck.
@new players: Looking forward to hearing some new opinions.
@Mangara siding out: I think players side out Mangara far too often. Way, way too much. The only matchups he is not dynamite in are those that are too fast: storm, goblins, merfolk, belcher, that's about all I can think of. Opponents immediately look at their hand for an out when he hits the table. Go ahead and watch next time. I play 4 Karakas, 3 Mangara, and I get the soft lock all the time, and it takes over games.
@Spirit of the Labyrinth: The issue I see, and what will only be solved with testing, is whether the benefits you see from hosing blue even more than we currently do is worth the additional difficulties encountered from the nonblue decks by including the Spirit. My guess is "yes", which means I suspect that this creature will be rather effective at living up to its billing (in large part due to its 3 damage), and that blue decks will, for now, continue to make up such a large percentage of the field - especially the higher tables.
My hope is that it will be a strong enough switch that we can shave some spots in the sideboard from decks that have blue in favor of extra hate directed at those decks that do not. What cards would be handy for Jund if we had more space?
Wilt-Leaf Liege
Isamaru, Hound of Konda
Jotun Grunt
Harm's Way
etc.
It is possible that if we can be fast enough, Spirit might actually be ok against Jund anyway. 3 damage is not puny. It kills anything that blocks it. Not terrible. But this entire approach is only worth it if the Spirit is actually good.
Also, if opponents ever start going to fast combo, I have often considered Elvish Spirit Guide in the sideboard to make our hate come out on turn 1. Just a thought.
Holy **** I'm famous. This made my day.
Legacy:WDeath and TaxesW W45-L16-D11 8 Top 8s 15th Scg Oakland
Current Kiln Fiend Count: 153 Please message me if you want to trade me or give me some.
Commission Rezombied to alter some cards, he's awesome!
The dude that mentioned Brainstorm possibly falling off the radar, wake up from your dream bud...that'll never happen, D@T is just one archetype in a large pool of water...but wouldn't that be nice if the best tempo draw spell in Legacy was gone ;).
GO SotL,
S.M.
Also I would like to point out that while Brimaz looks impressive on paper, I'm not convinced on his usefulness in this deck. While he dodges bolt and is legendary, his abilities all depend on the combat phase and thus, on the opponent's decisions. He doesn't grant your other creatures vigilance, nor has a blink trigger. In the current meta I'd rather run Restoration Angel. Also keep in mind that a -1/-1 effect shuts him down. Also he doesn't fly! In the current meta I can only see him running into a TNN or getting blown up by RandomRemoval#218970410 against Jund.
SotL is a card that I like a lot but I'd rather have her as a 2/2 than a 3/1. Will still run her in the maindeck. Also can be tutored with Enlightened Tutor, which is a huge bonus in combo matchups.
I haven't played a single game in maybe half a year by now so I don't know how the meta and opposing lists have evolved meanwhile, but I'd wager Paladin en-Vec is still a very nice creature to have on board against Jund. They should reprint him with another minor ability as legendary for WW or something.
Random removal being... just abrupt decay? Which they use on RiP/Vial/Swords/anything else relevant?
And -1/-1 effects don't shut him down--at least the ones in vogue. Golgari Charm and Zealous Persecution are the popular sweepers right now, with DoN trailing (only in ANT, tbh). E plague requires them to name soldier, which sucks, but leaves Mom intact.
I'm unconvinced.
@Finn: so, will you maintain the 3 Mangara post-BNG? I'm curious how you board as well if you do keep him in as much as you do. I actually love mango man, but I have had a hard time justifying him.
Currently playing:
Legacy
WW Death and Taxes(Rest in Peace)EDH
RR Krenko, Mob Boss
WW Thalia, Heretic Cathar
I feel that Mirran Crusader is just better than Paladin en-Vec in that regard. Tarmogoyf will slap the paladin silly.
Yes, pro-red protects it from Lightning Bolt and Punishing Fire, but a Sword of Fire and Ice does the same thing.
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Spirit of the Labyrinth
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Flickerwisp
2 Mangara of Corondor
2 Brimaz, King of Oreskos
4 Aether Vial
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Batterskull
10 Plains
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Cavern of Souls
3 Karakas
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
A few notes. I don't mind going down to 3 Revokers so long as Mangara is in the main as another "answer" to problematic permanents. The flier count in this list is low, so TNN could be an issue. However, if your opponent decides to start attacking with TNN, Spirit does very well on the swing back with his 3 power given they don't have other blockers on the board (but that's a big IF).
I don't know. I'm still messing around with numbers and whatnot. The low flier count is my main concern right now. Cutting Serra Avenger just doesn't feel right, but I feel that Brimaz fills the beatstick slot very well.
Thoughts...?
You can Cut Flickerwisp down to 3 never the less, and I'm on the fence with regards to Mangara as I tend to drop her completely these days (I know all the tricks, I know all the pros, but right now I would rather go with the more consistent route that can be found on Thecouncil).
S.M.
I love Serra Avenger, I'm just messing around with some ideas.
Therein lies the problem. I like two, personally.
Currently playing:
Legacy
WW Death and Taxes(Rest in Peace)EDH
RR Krenko, Mob Boss
WW Thalia, Heretic Cathar
I am looking forward to seeing brimaz in action, I do think our beaters are strong already but there is nothing like that new car(d) smell! Oh, and I am also putting baton of morale and meek stone in the board.
Death and Taxes
UG Infect
Strawberry Shortcake Imperial Painter
EDH
Angus Mackenzie - Enduring Enchantments
Adun Oakenshield - Jund F'ing Good Stuff, "Money Vault"
Eight-and-a-Half-Tails - Captain Crunch
The idea itself is a hard one to swallow, but he does make some good points. Most notably how Thalia and Vial are kind of at odds with each other. If Revoker and Spirit are your dedicated "hatebears" then you're actually maximizing your Vial usage every game.
Anyway, only time and testing will determine the best way to use David Bowie. It was a good read though and definitely worth checking out.
Baton of Morale, because our deck didn't already generate enough "Judge!" calls.
Personally, I'll be running 3 Spirit of the Labyrinth in my 75, two in the main and one in the side. As far as uber-cat is concerned, I need to play games to tell for sure; I love the idea of having a beater that I can protect with Karakas. I too have been giving a good hard look at Meekstone, which was already pretty good pre-BNG.
One last thought, given the increasing popularity of Dark Depths in various forms, I believe having 4 Flickerwisp is very important in the current metagame.
To me, that sounds like one of the worst ideas (in regard to MtG) ever published.
My best interpretation of what Levin was trying to say was that Revoker and Spirit of the Labyrinth are maybe most oppressive as stack tricks, where Thalia wants to be deployed as a Sorcery ideally when the opponent is tapped out and then has full reign over their following turn. This "tension" thing is digging though. Rarely is it wrong to get Thalia out even if it's not a trick. If it stays chances are whatever you wanted to deactivate with Phyrexian Revoker is taxed and set back from coming down a turn anyway (Jace, Lili, Jitte+Equip, etc). The idea of dropping Thalia is laughably bad.
Ignoring the hyperbole, regardless of how bad of an idea it is, we don't learn things by doing the same thing over and over again. Sometimes we have to try something different. For the record, he wasn't even saying that we should replace Thalia with Spirit, the implication was that the two cards are fighting for spots in the deck, and thus Drew Levin evaluated the situations where each card was better or worse. And I think he's correct in his evaluation.
Modern: UWR Kiki Control
Vintage: Esper Bomberman
Exactly!
Personally, I feel that Thalia and Spirit both belong in the deck and work well side-by-side. They both attack similar strategies (except Elves where Spirit shines and Thalia is meh). Since they attack similar strategies and Thalia is Legendary, I could see running 4 Spirit and 3 Thalia, which will mitigate the issue of having multiple Thalias stuck in your hand and help maximize your Vial activations.
At this point, running 4 Spirit sounds appealing. In the game 1 matches were Spirit isn't taxing their deck, it's still a very effective beater. I think 4 Spirit can be added to the deck by cutting 1X Thalia, 2X Mindcensor, and 1X?.