In a normal society, this prefacing usually goes without saying, but I would like to remind everyone before they post that I am asking for opinions and to respect the opinions of others. Discussing and disagreement are fine, but please don't post inflammatory remarks or try to incite the like from other users. Let's keep it respectful, as anything else detracts from the original intent of the question.
From the title, you probably have an idea of what this thread is about and have already formed an opinion based on your previous experiences before even deciding to click on the thread title that leads you to this post. From "Let's load up the board with Eye of the Storm, Knowledge Pool, Hive Mind and cast Thieves' Auction," to "Hey, casting Warp World might win me the game in a timely manner," and everything in between, we all have had experience with different combinations of cards that have a certain degree of chance and/or complexity. The question is, at what point do you have that inner groan telling you the complication of determining the board state is not worth staying in the game any longer?
Do you like the added degree of chance that Planechase brings to a multiplayer format?
Cards that give an advantage to opponents, that may or may not also confer a bonus to the caster (whether that bonus is of beguiling nature or blatant), also known as "Hug" cards, illicit a similar response or "groan factor." Where do you draw the line here? Is kingmaker too annoying, are cards like Temple Bell and Howling Mine acceptable?
The question is, at what point do you have that inner groan telling you the complication of determining the board state is not worth staying in the game any longer?
I never get to that point. The crazier the board state, the better.
Do you like the added degree of chance that Planechase brings to a multiplayer format?
Sure. I've played 2HG Archenemy Planechase EDH with 8 players, now that is real chance right there.
Is it leading toward your victory rather than "LOLOLLOOKWHATISHAPPENING"? The first is generally far more acceptable.
This is exactly my opinion. Almost any play is fine to me as long as the person casting it legitimately believes it is going to help them win the game.
Cast a spell that gives everyone at the table 40 1/1 tokens?
Absolutely fine if you expect that everyone will use them to gang up on someone who is running away with the game. Even better if you're holding back a wrath or an overrun.
On the other hand, if you do it just because you think it would be interesting, I might get annoyed.
Similarly, I have no problem at all with MLD. It serves a vital role. But if someone cast Jokulhaups on turn 4 when everyone has pretty even board positions and with no plan for how to recover faster than their opponents. Annoying as hell.
As a matter of fact, I even believe that if you're sitting on 1 life on your rightmost opponent's end step with a Phyrexian Arena in play, two mana up, and a Doom Blade in hand, you should never cast that Doom Blade.
Gonna agree with Jivan. Generally speaking, I enjoy chaos effects as a wincon and when done in moderation. I also like them a lot better on MTGO, where the program does all the thinking and resolving for me, and keeping track of triggers is a lot easier.
As for Planechase, I love it. It adds a new level of randomness to the game, and since we always play using one giant stack of all the planes, it's nothing you can really build around to your advantage, so it doesn't help one player more than another.
"Hey, casting Warp World might win me the game in a timely manner,"
Correction:
Casting Warp Worldwillwin me the gameinstantly
But honestly, I like that next level to games. Some players groan about chaos and durdly spells. These are mostly the competitive players on the board who will ramp and ramp then just play their decks. I like the extra factor, its fun to me. The thing about chaos is that you need to know how to play chaos. Contrary to belief, chaos isn't just stuffing your deck with the cards mentioned in OP and HOPING something will happen. Warp World should only be used in decks where you play lots of tokens so you can gain more presence then your opponents. Hive Mind should be used in metas with greedy players that play spells to interact only with their board state. Possibility Storm to be used against combos. Basically, just know how to win or take advantage of chaos spells instead of playing them for the sake of playing them.
None. the correct answer is "keep that **** the hell outta my game". I'm trying to play magic - no idea what you're playing with that random crap.
That said, you mentioned Oath, Edric, & Seer - these aren't what I'd call random or chaos. These are what I'd call strong cards that most decks should be playing if they're in the colours (Oath notwithstanding because it takes a bit of setup).
edit: As for the Commander-Planechase combo? That's awesome. Always loved that variant.
Generally speaking, I hate both group hug and chaos cards. My deck has draw engines, thanks. I don't need your font of mythos. You're just making things harder for me.
I really dislike how group hug players tend to get upset when you attack them/target their stuff. "I'm not a threat! I'm drawing you so many cards!" ...yeah, but you're also drawing all my opponents cards too.
I REALLY hate cards that people play just for the "random craziness" factor. I'll usually scoop to scrambleverse, because in the time that spell takes to resolve, I could be 5 turns into a brand new game.
Chaos Warp? Great card. Radiate my Chaos Warp? Scoop in response. I don't feel like shuffling for 10 minutes and figuring out ETB triggers.
Generally speaking, I hate both group hug and chaos cards. My deck has draw engines, thanks. I don't need your font of mythos. You're just making things harder for me.
I really dislike how group hug players tend to get upset when you attack them/target their stuff. "I'm not a threat! I'm drawing you so many cards!" ...yeah, but you're also drawing all my opponents cards too.
I REALLY hate cards that people play just for the "random craziness" factor. I'll usually scoop to scrambleverse, because in the time that spell takes to resolve, I could be 5 turns into a brand new game.
Chaos Warp? Great card. Radiate my Chaos Warp? Scoop in response. I don't feel like shuffling for 10 minutes and figuring out ETB triggers.
I agree with the sentiment if the decks become go to decks. It's cute for decks without an identity or having extra cards laid over in the collection that are just collecting dust and have no real value to be placed into a deck that's sole purpose is to create specific board states.
Although a certain part of me actually enjoys it whenever I can kill the group hug player in one attack phase. "Thanks for Super Mode."
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It's not 'crazy'. It just makes the game irrelevant usually. And lots of time the hug or chaos player can't handle game state they've created and lose. Please at least attempt to win the game.
And planecplane chase is dumb. I don't like winning just cause the plane that got flipped let me scry 4 letting me get the card I need to win. Or I got a ton of mana from a plane or a bunch of annilators guys. Just cause. Not fair to my opponents and not fair to me.
The other day I was playing EDH. Within the first three cards he looked up at me and said "this match is going to be gummy".
Especially in the 2013 commander decks, there's a lot of chaos/hug. He was running the Grixis deck which is a deck based on bear hug. I've sort of come to expect more chaos and what not from larger formats like EDH.
What I can't stand is Planechase. I hate planechase. Whereas EDH is chaotic and bear huggy, that's mainly because of the ways the decks are structured and because there's so many players (we usually have 4-5). Planechase is just randomly getting ****ed by the planes.
It might be better if any of us actually built a planechase deck instead of just randomizing from the pool.
You don't even have to combo as long as you can leverage better. I have a Casual-60 deck that does a lot of group hugging via 4x Mana Flare (It also uses Mana Reflection, but flare comes out earlier). Wins with a giant Apocalypse Hydra and/or Comet Storm. It helps its opponents some along the way, but most people just can't use that much mana effectively, while I can capitalize on approximately infinity mana.
I suppose, though, I have a high tolerance for chaos in general, though. I don't see myself using it unless it helps me win, but if somebody else plays it, playing around that can be fun. And I'm very much of the opinion that, in casual (which EDH is), the journey of the game is more important than the final outcome. Whether I won or lost mattered, but whether I had fun for the time it took me to find out which it would be mattered more.
To a couple particular circumstances...
I feel that if you are about to die in a multiplayer game, throwing your hoarded resources at whoever displeased you the most is only fitting. But then, I enjoy Nuclear War, a game where this behavior is hard-coded and often results in draws.
I feel like, if I'm in red in EDH, Radiate on the Chaos Warp that's coming for my General is a correct play. Not the correct play (if I can do something to keep my general or even the fallout without slowing the game to a crawl, I should do that), but at least a valid choice. Radiating your own chaos warp is just jerkly
To Planechase...
Planechase is great when you "Play it right" -- that is to say, everybody builds plane decks intended to synergize with their own decks on the field. If you're all just drawing from a big, fat pile of random planes, it can get a little stupid, though I think when combined with a slow, swingy format like EDH it might still manage to be fun.
Planechase is only fun with poor decks, or when using one of the variants which gives you more control. My personal favourite involves having three planes revealed at any given time, the centre one being active. At the end of each round around the table, there is a double vote. First vote is to planechase or not, second vote is for which two of the other revealed planes. Tiebreaker is the player with the lowest life total. The die is still used, except a role of planeswalk instead allows you to replace one of the other revealed planes. The "when you planeswalk to" effects are handled by changing the start of each round one player to the left each time. In other words the player who starts a round gets two turns in that round (one to start the round, one to end), then the next player starts the next round.
It's not 'crazy'. It just makes the game irrelevant usually. And lots of time the hug or chaos player can't handle game state they've created and lose. Please at least attempt to win the game.
Whenever I play my group chaos deck. I never plan to win (and it usually never does)
Personally, I don't care whether or not something is groan-worthy. I care if it's, in this order: not banned, competent, and fun (last one's optional).
It was said best in The Dark Knight. Some people just want to watch the world burn. That is a chaos deck in Magic and it is perfectly legit and sometimes fun to play. Now granted I wouldn't want to play against one every single friggin' game.
Group hug/chaos: Hate it with the burning passion of a thousand exploding suns. I dislike that it takes anything I brought to the table and tells me to stuff it, we're playing your game now. It feels terribly selfish, actually. The best part of EDH, for me, is building a deck to do something and then actually getting it to work in a real game. When someone sits down with a hug/chaos deck, what happens is that no one else gets to try and make their deck work. Instead, the hug/chaos guy screws everything around, gives people a plethora of resources that they were never expecting, and laughs while it all goes terribly wrong. Basically, hug/chaos says that everyone else has to play by the hugger's rules until either the game is over or the hugger is dead, which I hate. Best way to make me hate you and actively not play EDH with you is to play hug/chaos every game.
Planechase: I love Planechase, but need to know its coming ahead of time, so I can make sure I have a deck with lots of redundancy and resilience to it, so I can try and deal with everything the Planechase planes are going to hurl at me.
The thing about group hug is that when you go too far with it, you aren't really that any better than "hardcore control" or whatever strategies when it comes to letting people play with their decks. It's amusing at first but then people get annoyed at not being able to play as they want to.
That, and planechase are best done on infrequent occasions.
The best part of EDH, for me, is building a deck to do something and then actually getting it to work in a real game.
In every game, you have to fight for that right. A game with a chaos deck present is no exception. Make the group hug player lose by screwing with their plans. Or just flat out kill them. Every game is a challenge in setting up your wincon. This presents a new challenge: treat it as such.
That said, I agree with most posters here that any amount of group hug or chaos is fine provided the player is actually trying to win. To answer the OP, so long as you think those cards will benefit you more than it will your opponents, go for it. The short list you posted looks 100% fine to me.
Grip was a way to turn off that blasted Aura Shards. As well as the other enchantment removal that people were running at the time. Sure, it was symmetrical, but I started running more 2-for-1's, so that they still targetted properly. So, my deck ran better than everyone else's. (Note: Zedruu's ability targets 2 things.)
Thieves Auction and Scrambleverse were pseudo-wraths. It would break up combos, it would break up someone's army, and if I dropped Zedruu immediately afterwards, it would give me a greater chance of winning. Either of those cards screwed with the board position enough that I could drop Zedruu afterwards and see benefits soon enough.
Additionally, my Riku Storm deck uses Possibility Storm for all the reasons that anyone using Riku with lots of sorceries/instants should. It messes with your opponents gameplan, while your general ensures yours is intact.
So, of the chaos cards I ran, my aim was to ensure two things:
1) My opponents were in a mess.
2) My strategy was mostly unaffected.
When I added Confusion in the Ranks, I thought I'd be generally fine. Turns out I wasn't (since Confusion in the Ranks + Grip of Chaos is a nightmare). This meant that, while the first goal was met, the second one wasn't, and therefore, it got cut.
In every game, you have to fight for that right. A game with a chaos deck present is no exception. Make the group hug player lose by screwing with their plans. Or just flat out kill them. Every game is a challenge in setting up your wincon. This presents a new challenge: treat it as such.
Note that I did not say win condition, merely gameplan. I don't want to win every game, just to try and engage my gameplan as I envisioned it. I dislike hug because it says to everyone else that they cannot do that. Instead, they *must* play in the way the hugged wants. That is what I dislike so damn much.
I really don't think that a deck needs to have to fight for the right to *play* the game. That seems silly to me.
Group hug/chaos: Hate it with the burning passion of a thousand exploding suns. I dislike that it takes anything I brought to the table and tells me to stuff it, we're playing your game now. It feels terribly selfish, actually. The best part of EDH, for me, is building a deck to do something and then actually getting it to work in a real game. When someone sits down with a hug/chaos deck, what happens is that no one else gets to try and make their deck work. Instead, the hug/chaos guy screws everything around, gives people a plethora of resources that they were never expecting, and laughs while it all goes terribly wrong. Basically, hug/chaos says that everyone else has to play by the hugger's rules until either the game is over or the hugger is dead, which I hate. Best way to make me hate you and actively not play EDH with you is to play hug/chaos every game.
Note that I did not say win condition, merely gameplan. I don't want to win every game, just to try and engage my gameplan as I envisioned it. I dislike hug because it says to everyone else that they cannot do that. Instead, they *must* play in the way the hugged wants. That is what I dislike so damn much.
I really don't think that a deck needs to have to fight for the right to *play* the game. That seems silly to me.
That's the same reason why Stax is not fun to play against.
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That's the same reason why Stax is not fun to play against.
You need to play around stax, you need to play with hug. They are completely different decks. People dislike hug because it invalidates games, people dislike stax because they don't like having their stuff destroyed.
From the title, you probably have an idea of what this thread is about and have already formed an opinion based on your previous experiences before even deciding to click on the thread title that leads you to this post. From "Let's load up the board with Eye of the Storm, Knowledge Pool, Hive Mind and cast Thieves' Auction," to "Hey, casting Warp World might win me the game in a timely manner," and everything in between, we all have had experience with different combinations of cards that have a certain degree of chance and/or complexity. The question is, at what point do you have that inner groan telling you the complication of determining the board state is not worth staying in the game any longer?
Do you like the added degree of chance that Planechase brings to a multiplayer format?
Cards that give an advantage to opponents, that may or may not also confer a bonus to the caster (whether that bonus is of beguiling nature or blatant), also known as "Hug" cards, illicit a similar response or "groan factor." Where do you draw the line here? Is kingmaker too annoying, are cards like Temple Bell and Howling Mine acceptable?
Specifically for my benefit: Would Oath of Druids, Edric, Spymaster of Trest, and Duskmantle Seer be too groan-worthy for me to include in my The Mimeoplasm deck? The deck does have ways of taking advantage of these cards to further the goal of my winning the game.
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I never get to that point. The crazier the board state, the better.
Sure. I've played 2HG Archenemy Planechase EDH with 8 players, now that is real chance right there.
I personally don't have a line.
This is exactly my opinion. Almost any play is fine to me as long as the person casting it legitimately believes it is going to help them win the game.
Cast a spell that gives everyone at the table 40 1/1 tokens?
Absolutely fine if you expect that everyone will use them to gang up on someone who is running away with the game. Even better if you're holding back a wrath or an overrun.
On the other hand, if you do it just because you think it would be interesting, I might get annoyed.
Similarly, I have no problem at all with MLD. It serves a vital role. But if someone cast Jokulhaups on turn 4 when everyone has pretty even board positions and with no plan for how to recover faster than their opponents. Annoying as hell.
As a matter of fact, I even believe that if you're sitting on 1 life on your rightmost opponent's end step with a Phyrexian Arena in play, two mana up, and a Doom Blade in hand, you should never cast that Doom Blade.
As for Planechase, I love it. It adds a new level of randomness to the game, and since we always play using one giant stack of all the planes, it's nothing you can really build around to your advantage, so it doesn't help one player more than another.
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Correction:
Casting Warp World will win me the game instantly
But honestly, I like that next level to games. Some players groan about chaos and durdly spells. These are mostly the competitive players on the board who will ramp and ramp then just play their decks. I like the extra factor, its fun to me. The thing about chaos is that you need to know how to play chaos. Contrary to belief, chaos isn't just stuffing your deck with the cards mentioned in OP and HOPING something will happen. Warp World should only be used in decks where you play lots of tokens so you can gain more presence then your opponents. Hive Mind should be used in metas with greedy players that play spells to interact only with their board state. Possibility Storm to be used against combos. Basically, just know how to win or take advantage of chaos spells instead of playing them for the sake of playing them.
EDIT: Planechase is the bomb-diggidty. I love it.
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None. the correct answer is "keep that **** the hell outta my game". I'm trying to play magic - no idea what you're playing with that random crap.
That said, you mentioned Oath, Edric, & Seer - these aren't what I'd call random or chaos. These are what I'd call strong cards that most decks should be playing if they're in the colours (Oath notwithstanding because it takes a bit of setup).
edit: As for the Commander-Planechase combo? That's awesome. Always loved that variant.
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I really dislike how group hug players tend to get upset when you attack them/target their stuff. "I'm not a threat! I'm drawing you so many cards!" ...yeah, but you're also drawing all my opponents cards too.
I REALLY hate cards that people play just for the "random craziness" factor. I'll usually scoop to scrambleverse, because in the time that spell takes to resolve, I could be 5 turns into a brand new game.
Chaos Warp? Great card.
Radiate my Chaos Warp? Scoop in response. I don't feel like shuffling for 10 minutes and figuring out ETB triggers.
I agree with the sentiment if the decks become go to decks. It's cute for decks without an identity or having extra cards laid over in the collection that are just collecting dust and have no real value to be placed into a deck that's sole purpose is to create specific board states.
Although a certain part of me actually enjoys it whenever I can kill the group hug player in one attack phase. "Thanks for Super Mode."
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Nothing succeeds like the appearance of success.
Here is my principle: Taxes shall be levied according to ability to pay. That is the only American principle.
Hate hug.
Hate Chaos.
It's not 'crazy'. It just makes the game irrelevant usually. And lots of time the hug or chaos player can't handle game state they've created and lose. Please at least attempt to win the game.
And planecplane chase is dumb. I don't like winning just cause the plane that got flipped let me scry 4 letting me get the card I need to win. Or I got a ton of mana from a plane or a bunch of annilators guys. Just cause. Not fair to my opponents and not fair to me.
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Especially in the 2013 commander decks, there's a lot of chaos/hug. He was running the Grixis deck which is a deck based on bear hug. I've sort of come to expect more chaos and what not from larger formats like EDH.
What I can't stand is Planechase. I hate planechase. Whereas EDH is chaotic and bear huggy, that's mainly because of the ways the decks are structured and because there's so many players (we usually have 4-5). Planechase is just randomly getting ****ed by the planes.
It might be better if any of us actually built a planechase deck instead of just randomizing from the pool.
You don't even have to combo as long as you can leverage better. I have a Casual-60 deck that does a lot of group hugging via 4x Mana Flare (It also uses Mana Reflection, but flare comes out earlier). Wins with a giant Apocalypse Hydra and/or Comet Storm. It helps its opponents some along the way, but most people just can't use that much mana effectively, while I can capitalize on approximately infinity mana.
I suppose, though, I have a high tolerance for chaos in general, though. I don't see myself using it unless it helps me win, but if somebody else plays it, playing around that can be fun. And I'm very much of the opinion that, in casual (which EDH is), the journey of the game is more important than the final outcome. Whether I won or lost mattered, but whether I had fun for the time it took me to find out which it would be mattered more.
To a couple particular circumstances...
I feel that if you are about to die in a multiplayer game, throwing your hoarded resources at whoever displeased you the most is only fitting. But then, I enjoy Nuclear War, a game where this behavior is hard-coded and often results in draws.
I feel like, if I'm in red in EDH, Radiate on the Chaos Warp that's coming for my General is a correct play. Not the correct play (if I can do something to keep my general or even the fallout without slowing the game to a crawl, I should do that), but at least a valid choice. Radiating your own chaos warp is just jerkly
To Planechase...
Planechase is great when you "Play it right" -- that is to say, everybody builds plane decks intended to synergize with their own decks on the field. If you're all just drawing from a big, fat pile of random planes, it can get a little stupid, though I think when combined with a slow, swingy format like EDH it might still manage to be fun.
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Whenever I play my group chaos deck. I never plan to win (and it usually never does)
That is why that deck is so entertaining to play.
Hope that helps.
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Planechase: I love Planechase, but need to know its coming ahead of time, so I can make sure I have a deck with lots of redundancy and resilience to it, so I can try and deal with everything the Planechase planes are going to hurl at me.
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That, and planechase are best done on infrequent occasions.
In every game, you have to fight for that right. A game with a chaos deck present is no exception. Make the group hug player lose by screwing with their plans. Or just flat out kill them. Every game is a challenge in setting up your wincon. This presents a new challenge: treat it as such.
That said, I agree with most posters here that any amount of group hug or chaos is fine provided the player is actually trying to win. To answer the OP, so long as you think those cards will benefit you more than it will your opponents, go for it. The short list you posted looks 100% fine to me.
I had Grip of Chaos, Thieves Auction and Scrambleverse in my Zedruu deck. (At one point, it also had Confusion in the Ranks, but with Grip of chaos as well, it caused way too many problems).
Grip was a way to turn off that blasted Aura Shards. As well as the other enchantment removal that people were running at the time. Sure, it was symmetrical, but I started running more 2-for-1's, so that they still targetted properly. So, my deck ran better than everyone else's. (Note: Zedruu's ability targets 2 things.)
Thieves Auction and Scrambleverse were pseudo-wraths. It would break up combos, it would break up someone's army, and if I dropped Zedruu immediately afterwards, it would give me a greater chance of winning. Either of those cards screwed with the board position enough that I could drop Zedruu afterwards and see benefits soon enough.
Additionally, my Riku Storm deck uses Possibility Storm for all the reasons that anyone using Riku with lots of sorceries/instants should. It messes with your opponents gameplan, while your general ensures yours is intact.
So, of the chaos cards I ran, my aim was to ensure two things:
1) My opponents were in a mess.
2) My strategy was mostly unaffected.
When I added Confusion in the Ranks, I thought I'd be generally fine. Turns out I wasn't (since Confusion in the Ranks + Grip of Chaos is a nightmare). This meant that, while the first goal was met, the second one wasn't, and therefore, it got cut.
Note that I did not say win condition, merely gameplan. I don't want to win every game, just to try and engage my gameplan as I envisioned it. I dislike hug because it says to everyone else that they cannot do that. Instead, they *must* play in the way the hugged wants. That is what I dislike so damn much.
I really don't think that a deck needs to have to fight for the right to *play* the game. That seems silly to me.
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If you don't like it, eliminate said player.
That's the same reason why Stax is not fun to play against.
You need to play around stax, you need to play with hug. They are completely different decks. People dislike hug because it invalidates games, people dislike stax because they don't like having their stuff destroyed.