One of the many things Maro likes to talk about is how magic design involves breaking rules that were thought unbreakable... sometimes rules so basic that no one even really realized they were there (double faced cards obviously being the best recent example of this).
Which got me thinking... what rules like "every card has the same back" remain that could be broken? Which do you think are breakable and which are not?
Here are some that come to mind:
-You can never end up with a card in your hand or library that you don't own. This I think will remain unbroken... the spectre of someone accidentally stealing cards looms too large to risk meddling with this. And there are ways to template playing cards from exile that end up giving the same result, at least as far as cards in hand are concerned.
-Nothing that happens in one game affects the next game in the match. The "double dip" cycle from unglued broke this rule, and I don't think this is utterly out of the question that it could be messed with in the future. It's dangerous because the cards would be so different in a tournament setting with 2/3 matches compared to a casual setting... but there might be some bit of templating that would let it work the way expected in a tournament and still have some meaningful and fun effect outside a tournament.
-Everything has a controller. I think there could easily be an arrest variant which read "this permanent has no controller".
-Once a game starts, additional players can not join it. One of the cards in one of the GDSs was silver bordered and turned a player into a 2HG. I can't imagine a way this could ever be done in anything other than either an un-set or a multiplayer-specific product like commander
-Cards in the library can't do anything while they're in the library. Miracles and that worm that you can cast while you search both play with this design space a little bit, I think it can be explored a fair bit more. Cards that are revealed when you shuffle? Cards that do something if they're on the bottom of your library?
-Shuffling must always be random. There are a few things that modify how you search a library, nothing that really modifies how you shuffle it. But "the next time you shuffle your library this turn, instead arrange it however you like" isn't impossible, although it would have to be rare enough not to be super time-consuming
-Only the active player can attack. Could there be an instant relentless assault that gives you an attack phase during an opponent's turn? Vaguely possible, although I'm not sure how well the rules could handle it
-Nothing modifies card text. Sleight of Mind/Magical Hack and their ilk edit text in a very limited way, but what about a card that let you remove an arbitrary word from any sentence on any card? I don't think anything like that is possible at all, although there might be a few more sleight/hack/esque things that could be done. Maybe something that lets burn spells that can target players also target creatures and vice versa, or something that turns "destroy target enchantment" into "destroy target permanent that is not an ehcnantment". But I don't know if any such templating is really doable. Modifying numbers up and down might be easier.
As for taking other players cards, this occurs all the time with permanents obviously. I think anytime they do have this effect, it's essentially worded so that they just get to choose a card out of their opponents hand or library to cast or play. Mindslaver and bribery come to mind on this one. You're right in that they will likely never just have a card that says 'take a card out of your opponents hand and add it to your own', simply because there are already cards that can cast cards out of your opponents hand without handing them over to your opponent. I don't really think stealing cards would be an issue though, most people play with sleeves and can easily determine their opponent has taken one of their cards and put it into their deck.
You could add the storm mechanic to that list. Maro says storm will never be reprinted. Of course, with new world order, he'd probably circumvent this by putting storm on a creature somehow. I hear putting good spells on creatures is all the rage these days.
I can see it now:
Thragtusk's Desire :3mana::symg::symu:
good spell that is now a creature - storm beast
Storm (copy this spell for each spell cast before this one)
When Thragtusk's Desire comes into play choose any enter the battlefield effect of any known creature and copy that ability, okay guys?
When your opponent even thinks about removing this creature, especially at instant speed, put an Emrakul, the Aeons torn into play from you library.
-Only the active player can attack. Could there be an instant relentless assault that gives you an attack phase during an opponent's turn? Vaguely possible, although I'm not sure how well the rules could handle it
I kind of like this idea.
3RRR
Unexpected Assault
Instant
After the current phase, you may take an additional combat phase
(Insert reminder text about resuming regular phase progression)
I could see a 'library madness' keyword. When {card} name is revealed from your library for any reason, you play it for its 'library madness' cost. This isn't really the same as the wurm, since it won't work with tutors. It obviously would be broken with hermit druid or goblin charbelcher, though usually those cards just win anyways.
Goblin Recruiter already allows you to rig your library the way you want though it has nothing to do with a shuffle effect.
I think there is still more that can be done with alternate casting costs. In fact, I don't even think we've scratched the surface with alternate casting costs yet.
I don't really think stealing cards would be an issue though, most people play with sleeves and can easily determine their opponent has taken one of their cards and put it into their deck.
I think the real issue there would be that someone's library would have a card in a different colored sleeve that was clearly visible in it. So what happens next time that library is shuffled and cut? How do you possibly fairly randomize it?
A somewhat similar type of effect would be something like putting a card back into your library upside down so you can always see where it is in your library. Lots of interesting strategic implications, but how do you shuffle that library fairly?
I don't really think stealing cards would be an issue though, most people play with sleeves and can easily determine their opponent has taken one of their cards and put it into their deck.
Until you run into the issue of players who both don't have sleeves, or players whose sleeves are the same brand/color, or players who are unscrupulous enough to go out of their way to distract the opponent while they slip that O-Ring'ed <insert name of mythic here> into their deckbox after the game. It's enough of a problem that the tournament rules uses it as a specific example in the section on deck-related penalties.
Also, WotC has confirmed that effects caring about when a card was "originally printed" (City in a Bottle/Golgothian Sylex/Apocalypse Chime; strangely, not updated in Gatherer yet) will never be made again.
Honestly, I would LOVE to see cards that affect the next game in a competitive environment.
If designed properly, there are an excellent set of tradeoffs. Overcosted effects for the first game that improve your odds for the second game. In that second game, though, these cards become less valuable, and even less for a third game. They could be sideboarded out for better versions in subsequent games, but that takes up valuable sideboard space.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"[Screw] you and the green you ramped in on." - My EDH battle cry. If I had one. Which I don't.
Well my opponent didn't scoop when I once ultimate with Karn Liberated with some cards exiled with it. I think that's as close as affecting the "next" game.
Well my opponent didn't scoop when I once ultimate with Karn Liberated with some cards exiled with it. I think that's as close as affecting the "next" game.
yeah, but obviously the understanding is that it's still just a single game that counts towards a match. Karn's ultimate is definitely unique though.
Zones are pretty untouched in general. Like what would a game of magic be like if there was no stack? "All spells have split second"
5RRR
Warp World.
For the rest of the game, there are two battlefields. When you cast this spell, each player may move any permanent from the first battlefield to the second battlefield. Then, when a card would enter the battlefield, the player decides which battlefield is entered.
4BB
Immortality
If a card would enter the graveyard from the battlefield, instead that card remains on the battlefield.
If a card would enter the graveyard from a player's hand, instead that card remains in that players hand.
Material Abundance
2G Sorcery
Exile all lands from your library. For the rest of the game, whenever you would draw a card, instead you may return a land exiled this way to your hand.
Zones are pretty untouched in general. Like what would a game of magic be like if there was no stack? "All spells have split second"
5RRR
Warp World.
For the rest of the game, there are two battlefields. When you cast this spell, each player may move any permanent from the first battlefield to the second battlefield. Then, when a card would enter the battlefield, the player decides which battlefield is entered.
Doubtful, as it would requre MUCH more table space, make games more complicated, and would actually reduce card interaction.
4BB
Immortality
If a card would enter the graveyard from the battlefield, instead that card remains on the battlefield.
If a card would enter the graveyard from a player's hand, instead that card remains in that players hand.
Material Abundance
2G Sorcery
Exile all lands from your library. For the rest of the game, whenever you would draw a card, instead you may return a land exiled this way to your hand.
NO!, it is hard enough to get players to stop putting 10 land in their 90 card decks (yes I have seen that).
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
There's no proof she's being chased
by ninja squirrels either. - Dr. Wilson
4BB
Immortality
If a card would enter the graveyard from the battlefield, instead that card remains on the battlefield.
If a card would enter the graveyard from a player's hand, instead that card remains in that players hand.
I'm not at all sure how these would work with things that involve sacrifices or discards as part of the cost of something. I _think_ that costs can't be replaced as part of replacements effects, but it's likely to just lead to arguments. "I sacrifice my mogg fanatic a zillion times and kill you" "No you don't, you can't" "why not?" etc.
If you really want to mess with zones, and want to break rules that have never been broken how about something in which a card is in more than one zone at the same time. For instance, a templating of animate dead which reads:
Aura - Enchant creature card in a graveyard
Enchanted creature card is on the battlefield in addition to being in the graveyard.
Or something with the text "play with your hand revealed. All creature cards in your hand are also on the battlefield".
I'm not sure if a multi-zone card like that actually breaks the rules... if anything asks if the card is in a zone, it is. So if it's in your GY and in play, well, it can be targetted by cremate, and also by doom blade. That said, it's probably just too brainbustingly confusing. In particular, if something is both on the battlefield and in your hand, and it gets unsummoned, what happens? Etc.
Non-spell effects on the stack certainly have controllers.
Emblems have controllers.
Emblems are one of four exceptions to the rule that only objects on the battlefield/stack have controllers. The other three exceptions are planar cards in a Planechase game, vanguard cards in a Vanguard game, and scheme cards in an Archenemy game.
109.4. Only objects on the stack or on the battlefield have a controller. Objects that are neither on the stack nor on the battlefield aren’t controlled by any player. See rule 108.4. There are four exceptions to this rule:
109.4a An emblem is controlled by the player that puts it into the command zone. See rule 113, “Emblems.”
I admit that I did misspeak in my previous post; non-mana activated and triggered abilities also have controllers, in addition to spells.
More interaction with the mulligan resource, currently all that exists is Serum Powder...maybe a mechanic like this:
Wishing Well [Cost] (Before a game begins, you may announce "Wishing Well". If you do, you may not mulligan and you may cast this card for its Wishing Well cost.)
or this:
Catchup (When you play this card, if you started the game with 5 or less cards in hand, you may search your library for a basic land and put it into play tapped)
Which got me thinking... what rules like "every card has the same back" remain that could be broken? Which do you think are breakable and which are not?
Here are some that come to mind:
-You can never end up with a card in your hand or library that you don't own. This I think will remain unbroken... the spectre of someone accidentally stealing cards looms too large to risk meddling with this. And there are ways to template playing cards from exile that end up giving the same result, at least as far as cards in hand are concerned.
-Nothing that happens in one game affects the next game in the match. The "double dip" cycle from unglued broke this rule, and I don't think this is utterly out of the question that it could be messed with in the future. It's dangerous because the cards would be so different in a tournament setting with 2/3 matches compared to a casual setting... but there might be some bit of templating that would let it work the way expected in a tournament and still have some meaningful and fun effect outside a tournament.
-Everything has a controller. I think there could easily be an arrest variant which read "this permanent has no controller".
-Once a game starts, additional players can not join it. One of the cards in one of the GDSs was silver bordered and turned a player into a 2HG. I can't imagine a way this could ever be done in anything other than either an un-set or a multiplayer-specific product like commander
-Cards in the library can't do anything while they're in the library. Miracles and that worm that you can cast while you search both play with this design space a little bit, I think it can be explored a fair bit more. Cards that are revealed when you shuffle? Cards that do something if they're on the bottom of your library?
-Shuffling must always be random. There are a few things that modify how you search a library, nothing that really modifies how you shuffle it. But "the next time you shuffle your library this turn, instead arrange it however you like" isn't impossible, although it would have to be rare enough not to be super time-consuming
-Only the active player can attack. Could there be an instant relentless assault that gives you an attack phase during an opponent's turn? Vaguely possible, although I'm not sure how well the rules could handle it
-Nothing modifies card text. Sleight of Mind/Magical Hack and their ilk edit text in a very limited way, but what about a card that let you remove an arbitrary word from any sentence on any card? I don't think anything like that is possible at all, although there might be a few more sleight/hack/esque things that could be done. Maybe something that lets burn spells that can target players also target creatures and vice versa, or something that turns "destroy target enchantment" into "destroy target permanent that is not an ehcnantment". But I don't know if any such templating is really doable. Modifying numbers up and down might be easier.
Comments? Other such rules?
He already mentioned that.
As for taking other players cards, this occurs all the time with permanents obviously. I think anytime they do have this effect, it's essentially worded so that they just get to choose a card out of their opponents hand or library to cast or play. Mindslaver and bribery come to mind on this one. You're right in that they will likely never just have a card that says 'take a card out of your opponents hand and add it to your own', simply because there are already cards that can cast cards out of your opponents hand without handing them over to your opponent. I don't really think stealing cards would be an issue though, most people play with sleeves and can easily determine their opponent has taken one of their cards and put it into their deck.
You could add the storm mechanic to that list. Maro says storm will never be reprinted. Of course, with new world order, he'd probably circumvent this by putting storm on a creature somehow. I hear putting good spells on creatures is all the rage these days.
I can see it now:
Thragtusk's Desire :3mana::symg::symu:
good spell that is now a creature - storm beast
Storm (copy this spell for each spell cast before this one)
When Thragtusk's Desire comes into play choose any enter the battlefield effect of any known creature and copy that ability, okay guys?
When your opponent even thinks about removing this creature, especially at instant speed, put an Emrakul, the Aeons torn into play from you library.
5/3
Modern Junk Primer
Legacy ANT Primer
L1 Judge
I kind of like this idea.
3RRR
Unexpected Assault
Instant
After the current phase, you may take an additional combat phase
(Insert reminder text about resuming regular phase progression)
"Sometimes, the situation is outracing a threat, sometimes it's ignoring it, and sometimes it involves sideboarding in 4x Hope//Pray." --Doug Linn
I think there is still more that can be done with alternate casting costs. In fact, I don't even think we've scratched the surface with alternate casting costs yet.
I think the real issue there would be that someone's library would have a card in a different colored sleeve that was clearly visible in it. So what happens next time that library is shuffled and cut? How do you possibly fairly randomize it?
A somewhat similar type of effect would be something like putting a card back into your library upside down so you can always see where it is in your library. Lots of interesting strategic implications, but how do you shuffle that library fairly?
Until you run into the issue of players who both don't have sleeves, or players whose sleeves are the same brand/color, or players who are unscrupulous enough to go out of their way to distract the opponent while they slip that O-Ring'ed <insert name of mythic here> into their deckbox after the game. It's enough of a problem that the tournament rules uses it as a specific example in the section on deck-related penalties.
Also, WotC has confirmed that effects caring about when a card was "originally printed" (City in a Bottle/Golgothian Sylex/Apocalypse Chime; strangely, not updated in Gatherer yet) will never be made again.
Avatar by Numotflame96 of Maelstrom Graphics
Sig banner thanks to DarkNightCavalier of Heroes of the Plane Studios!
Two Score, Minus Two or: A Stargate Tail
(Image by totallynotabrony)
If designed properly, there are an excellent set of tradeoffs. Overcosted effects for the first game that improve your odds for the second game. In that second game, though, these cards become less valuable, and even less for a third game. They could be sideboarded out for better versions in subsequent games, but that takes up valuable sideboard space.
Pristaxcontrombmodruu!
yeah, but obviously the understanding is that it's still just a single game that counts towards a match. Karn's ultimate is definitely unique though.
Modern Junk Primer
Legacy ANT Primer
L1 Judge
5RRR
Warp World.
For the rest of the game, there are two battlefields. When you cast this spell, each player may move any permanent from the first battlefield to the second battlefield. Then, when a card would enter the battlefield, the player decides which battlefield is entered.
4BB
Immortality
If a card would enter the graveyard from the battlefield, instead that card remains on the battlefield.
If a card would enter the graveyard from a player's hand, instead that card remains in that players hand.
Material Abundance
2G Sorcery
Exile all lands from your library. For the rest of the game, whenever you would draw a card, instead you may return a land exiled this way to your hand.
Non-spell effects on the stack certainly have controllers.
Emblems have controllers.
Doubtful, as it would requre MUCH more table space, make games more complicated, and would actually reduce card interaction.
Tamiyo, the Moon Sage
NO!, it is hard enough to get players to stop putting 10 land in their 90 card decks (yes I have seen that).
There's no proof she's being chased
by ninja squirrels either. - Dr. Wilson
Lol have you even read Warp World? 8 mana mythics don't need to be simple.
Tamiyo doesn't make your permanents indestructible.
I'm not at all sure how these would work with things that involve sacrifices or discards as part of the cost of something. I _think_ that costs can't be replaced as part of replacements effects, but it's likely to just lead to arguments. "I sacrifice my mogg fanatic a zillion times and kill you" "No you don't, you can't" "why not?" etc.
If you really want to mess with zones, and want to break rules that have never been broken how about something in which a card is in more than one zone at the same time. For instance, a templating of animate dead which reads:
Aura - Enchant creature card in a graveyard
Enchanted creature card is on the battlefield in addition to being in the graveyard.
Or something with the text "play with your hand revealed. All creature cards in your hand are also on the battlefield".
I'm not sure if a multi-zone card like that actually breaks the rules... if anything asks if the card is in a zone, it is. So if it's in your GY and in play, well, it can be targetted by cremate, and also by doom blade. That said, it's probably just too brainbustingly confusing. In particular, if something is both on the battlefield and in your hand, and it gets unsummoned, what happens? Etc.
Do you think they could release a set where all the cards are the same rarity? Limited would be very different, if not unplayable.
In booster packs? No way. But I could very well see a pre-made Cube as a premium supplemental release in-between sets.
Avatar by Numotflame96 of Maelstrom Graphics
Sig banner thanks to DarkNightCavalier of Heroes of the Plane Studios!
Emblems are one of four exceptions to the rule that only objects on the battlefield/stack have controllers. The other three exceptions are planar cards in a Planechase game, vanguard cards in a Vanguard game, and scheme cards in an Archenemy game.
I admit that I did misspeak in my previous post; non-mana activated and triggered abilities also have controllers, in addition to spells.
Two Score, Minus Two or: A Stargate Tail
(Image by totallynotabrony)
Why do you say that Limited would be unplayable if all the cards were the same rarity?
Wishing Well [Cost] (Before a game begins, you may announce "Wishing Well". If you do, you may not mulligan and you may cast this card for its Wishing Well cost.)
or this:
Catchup (When you play this card, if you started the game with 5 or less cards in hand, you may search your library for a basic land and put it into play tapped)
It depends on what cards are in the set. Imagine it was viable to get 3 Thundermaw Hellkites in limited, it was be insanity.