To sum up what most people I've agreed with said, and my own thoughts.
1) Signalling in a swiss is more "what are the colors of the good cards in the pack"
Whereas in an 84 you want more "What cards in the pack are key players in archetype X"
To use an old example. In zendikar block I found the green deck wanted to draft vines of the vastwood pretty highly, so if you saw a 4th or 5th pick vines, assuming you were playing with people that know the archetypes, you could guess that it's open.
As someone said, metagames in drafts can change too, if everyone is drafting slow durdley decks and you see a signal to go into an aggressive deck, do it. Just know the cards you're looking for.
Also, remember the powerful cards you've passed (or just look at your draft cap). Knowing to play around a planar cleansing because you passed one, etc.
2) Let other people see your drafting (either by posting draft caps, recording them, or streaming them)
You might have to filter out the people that are trying to help but don't know they are bad, but it costs you nothing to solicit advice.
3) You can use the common printrun to see how well you're reading signals
I posted it on this forum, and it doesn't hurt
4) Win % is relative. Just because you have an 80% win rate in swiss doesn't mean you have an 80% win rate in 84's.
If you want to keep an objective count of your match win/loss % keep a spreadsheet. It take 20 seconds to add a draft to it, and you will have objective data on your win rate.
Make sure to include all data. Some people don't record that time they got mana screwed and lost, but every game counts. If you want to add notes to it you can do that though
Because win % are relative there can be a sweet spot where 4322 > 84 for you, but...
5) This is my opinion, but, please don't play 4322. 11<12 so until they are 5322's vote with your wallet and boycott them.
6) Variance is much higher in an 84. what does this mean? A bad streak in a swiss, and you loose 12 tickets in an hour, a bad streak in an 84 and you lose 36 tickets in an hour.
If you don't have the bank roll to absorb back streaks (assuming it is just bad luck and not playskill they will be balanced out by good streaks in the long run), then unless you can continually dump money into magic, you will have to just stop playing until you can buy more tickets.
Personally, I stick to swiss. I don't have the bankroll to absorb the variance of an 84, and I like to play 3 rounds of magic. If I had more money I'd probably do 84's eventually, but I don't want to get to a point where I lose 4 84's in a row and can't play magic for the rest of the month.
I call baloney on your so-called stats. I have played several 4-3-2-2s and the skill level is much, much, higher than Swiss. I don't see things like P2P10 Serra angels flying around in a 4322, something that just happened to me in a Swiss draft, albeit a release swiss draft.
Nope, I'm not lying. I've no incentive to lie here. Numbers do lie sometimes, though...
It sure does feel different, doesn't it?
Here's 56 ratings from each draft queue, if seeing the numbers makes it seem more real.
Something that could explain why drafting in a swiss queue feels looser than the 4322 is the standard deviation. Swiss skill has a higher variance/stdev than 4322, and all it takes is a couple <1600s in a draft to see late cards everywhere.
I'm gonna take another sample soon now that M14 is live. I'd love to believe that the numbers are wrong, especially since according to these numbers, you have to be 1850 just to be +.5 tix EV for an 8-4 assuming 3tix money opened and pack value at 3.25. That's really depressing, to be that good and to earn so little.
I'm gonna take another sample soon now that M14 is live. I'd love to believe that the numbers are wrong, especially since according to these numbers, you have to be 1850 just to be +.5 tix EV for an 8-4 assuming 3tix money opened and pack value at 3.25. That's really depressing, to be that good and to earn so little.
You get to play an awesome game for free, even earn a little. I don't think its so bad.
I am going to assume this comment was in regard to the quote from el_pato above. If not, correct me.
The comment from el_pato was, I believe, saying that it is sad that you have to be THAT high, because that is an incredibly high rating to have consistently.
Here's a little secret: writing down all the cards is actually less work than writing down only some of them. The reason is that if you say "I'm only going to write down the important cards", you have to think about whether or not to write down every new card the opponent shows you. Instead of stopping and thinking about whether I might care about that card down the line, I write it down automatically - I don't have to think about it.
Here's a little secret: writing down all the cards is actually less work than writing down only some of them. The reason is that if you say "I'm only going to write down the important cards", you have to think about whether or not to write down every new card the opponent shows you. Instead of stopping and thinking about whether I might care about that card down the line, I write it down automatically - I don't have to think about it.
So yeah, every card
Great idea! I'll start doing this both online and in paper.
If games go long, you can have most of your opponent's deck figured out by Game 3 which is a huge advantage. Beyond just tricks, it lets you focus on when to use your removal i.e. I should probably just kill that creature now because I know 20 of his 23 cards so the odds that he has and will draw some ridiculous bomb next turn are extremely low.
Just remember at higher level tournaments, you have to start your notes from scratch each match. You cannot bring in notes from outside the match.
Great idea! I'll start doing this both online and in paper.
I only do it IRL in tournaments that matter. GPs and PTs, previously Nationals as well. For a few years now you could have been able to spot me at events by looking for the guy who uses both halves of his scorepad
If games go long, you can have most of your opponent's deck figured out by Game 3 which is a huge advantage. Beyond just tricks, it lets you focus on when to use your removal i.e. I should probably just kill that creature now because I know 20 of his 23 cards so the odds that he has and will draw some ridiculous bomb next turn are extremely low.
You can also use it to figure out what the opponent's curve looks like, which could influence your play/draw decision, whether you keep, early trades, etc. Subtle things, but still things.
I only do it IRL in tournaments that matter. GPs and PTs, previously Nationals as well. For a few years now you could have been able to spot me at events by looking for the guy who uses both halves of his scorepad
You can also use it to figure out what the opponent's curve looks like, which could influence your play/draw decision, whether you keep, early trades, etc. Subtle things, but still things.
I am going to assume this comment was in regard to the quote from el_pato above. If not, correct me.
The comment from el_pato was, I believe, saying that it is sad that you have to be THAT high, because that is an incredibly high rating to have consistently.
You need to be higher than that to go infinite. I was 1850 a year and a half ago for a six month period, and nowhere near infinite- probably around -1 pack per draft. I have a friend who is currently 2k and insufferably smug about it, hasn't dipped below 1880 or so for years, and has to supplement his Limited play with constructed queues to break even.
Going infinite over the long term by playing only limited queues on MTGO is not really feasible in 2013 sadly. Don't kid yourself.
I would start by watching draft videos of great players, At the begining of each pick, pause the video and look at what you would pick then resume and see if you're right. And if you're wrong, compare the two cards, there might be something you're not seeing. This is a great tool, and has helped me in my limited game.
You need to be higher than that to go infinite. I was 1850 a year and a half ago for a six month period, and nowhere near infinite- probably around -1 pack per draft. I have a friend who is currently 2k and insufferably smug about it, hasn't dipped below 1880 or so for years, and has to supplement his Limited play with constructed queues to break even.
Going infinite over the long term by playing only limited queues on MTGO is not really feasible in 2013 sadly. Don't kid yourself.
You have a wrong approach. Going infinite does not include only winning. Going infinite includes raredrafting and lots of it. I used my creditcard in january 2009. My only constructed tournaments are about 2/3 of the constructed mocs that have been happening during that period and maybe a daily once every 6 months or a year if I have the deck from mocs. I rarely pass a card worth 1 tix and I find it quite stupid to do so, unless you have a complete disregard towards money.
I usually spend about half as much time on both decisionmaking & "physical play" (the time it takes for me to tap permanents, play spells, draw cards, etc) + I write down the cards in my opponent's turn.
Haven't had an unintentional draw since mid-2008 (a control mirror in a Standard GP), so it should be fine
1) Signalling in a swiss is more "what are the colors of the good cards in the pack"
Whereas in an 84 you want more "What cards in the pack are key players in archetype X"
To use an old example. In zendikar block I found the green deck wanted to draft vines of the vastwood pretty highly, so if you saw a 4th or 5th pick vines, assuming you were playing with people that know the archetypes, you could guess that it's open.
As someone said, metagames in drafts can change too, if everyone is drafting slow durdley decks and you see a signal to go into an aggressive deck, do it. Just know the cards you're looking for.
Also, remember the powerful cards you've passed (or just look at your draft cap). Knowing to play around a planar cleansing because you passed one, etc.
2) Let other people see your drafting (either by posting draft caps, recording them, or streaming them)
You might have to filter out the people that are trying to help but don't know they are bad, but it costs you nothing to solicit advice.
3) You can use the common printrun to see how well you're reading signals
I posted it on this forum, and it doesn't hurt
4) Win % is relative. Just because you have an 80% win rate in swiss doesn't mean you have an 80% win rate in 84's.
If you want to keep an objective count of your match win/loss % keep a spreadsheet. It take 20 seconds to add a draft to it, and you will have objective data on your win rate.
Make sure to include all data. Some people don't record that time they got mana screwed and lost, but every game counts. If you want to add notes to it you can do that though
Because win % are relative there can be a sweet spot where 4322 > 84 for you, but...
5) This is my opinion, but, please don't play 4322. 11<12 so until they are 5322's vote with your wallet and boycott them.
6) Variance is much higher in an 84. what does this mean? A bad streak in a swiss, and you loose 12 tickets in an hour, a bad streak in an 84 and you lose 36 tickets in an hour.
If you don't have the bank roll to absorb back streaks (assuming it is just bad luck and not playskill they will be balanced out by good streaks in the long run), then unless you can continually dump money into magic, you will have to just stop playing until you can buy more tickets.
Personally, I stick to swiss. I don't have the bankroll to absorb the variance of an 84, and I like to play 3 rounds of magic. If I had more money I'd probably do 84's eventually, but I don't want to get to a point where I lose 4 84's in a row and can't play magic for the rest of the month.
Nope, I'm not lying. I've no incentive to lie here. Numbers do lie sometimes, though...
It sure does feel different, doesn't it?
Here's 56 ratings from each draft queue, if seeing the numbers makes it seem more real.
swiss
1759
1608
1507
1777
1700
1652
1584
1631
1740
1714
1553
1776
1683
1557
1573
1621
1781
1576
1617
1734
1572
1594
1666
1551
1765
1683
1727
1650
1608
1528
1681
1367
1660
1811
1612
1538
1633
1576
1559
1552
1731
1802
1701
1753
1593
1736
1529
1538
1655
1529
1650
1700
1685
1612
1478
1554
1739
1561
1524
1633
1619
1539
1490
1678
1657
1645
1600
1591
1625
1744
1657
1603
1675
1622
1526
1695
1744
1652
1693
1606
1692
1745
1764
1602
1558
1584
1535
1602
1718
1740
1706
1615
1619
1674
1590
1610
1634
1696
1682
1566
1575
1633
1710
1634
1592
1550
1678
1588
1724
1608
1585
1499
1811
1712
1582
1762
1717
1685
1753
1725
1752
1761
1899
1740
1630
1691
1809
1735
1832
1789
1668
1772
1778
1700
1791
1569
1692
1651
1744
1776
1677
1627
1604
1768
1719
1711
1542
1777
1633
1782
1740
1753
1817
1718
1647
1823
1772
1614
1614
1714
1711
1794
1710
1796
1678
1817
1641
1795
Something that could explain why drafting in a swiss queue feels looser than the 4322 is the standard deviation. Swiss skill has a higher variance/stdev than 4322, and all it takes is a couple <1600s in a draft to see late cards everywhere.
I'm gonna take another sample soon now that M14 is live. I'd love to believe that the numbers are wrong, especially since according to these numbers, you have to be 1850 just to be +.5 tix EV for an 8-4 assuming 3tix money opened and pack value at 3.25. That's really depressing, to be that good and to earn so little.
I am going to assume this comment was in regard to the quote from el_pato above. If not, correct me.
The comment from el_pato was, I believe, saying that it is sad that you have to be THAT high, because that is an incredibly high rating to have consistently.
Sene, what types of notes are you generally taking when you play in 8-4s?
I will write down my opponent's cards in a notebook as he plays them, which I will then consult frequently during the rest of the match.
All of the cards you see or only the tricks?
Here's a little secret: writing down all the cards is actually less work than writing down only some of them. The reason is that if you say "I'm only going to write down the important cards", you have to think about whether or not to write down every new card the opponent shows you. Instead of stopping and thinking about whether I might care about that card down the line, I write it down automatically - I don't have to think about it.
So yeah, every card
Great idea! I'll start doing this both online and in paper.
Just remember at higher level tournaments, you have to start your notes from scratch each match. You cannot bring in notes from outside the match.
I only do it IRL in tournaments that matter. GPs and PTs, previously Nationals as well. For a few years now you could have been able to spot me at events by looking for the guy who uses both halves of his scorepad
You can also use it to figure out what the opponent's curve looks like, which could influence your play/draw decision, whether you keep, early trades, etc. Subtle things, but still things.
Seems like slow play...
You need to be higher than that to go infinite. I was 1850 a year and a half ago for a six month period, and nowhere near infinite- probably around -1 pack per draft. I have a friend who is currently 2k and insufferably smug about it, hasn't dipped below 1880 or so for years, and has to supplement his Limited play with constructed queues to break even.
Going infinite over the long term by playing only limited queues on MTGO is not really feasible in 2013 sadly. Don't kid yourself.
Dega midrange 1-0
You have a wrong approach. Going infinite does not include only winning. Going infinite includes raredrafting and lots of it. I used my creditcard in january 2009. My only constructed tournaments are about 2/3 of the constructed mocs that have been happening during that period and maybe a daily once every 6 months or a year if I have the deck from mocs. I rarely pass a card worth 1 tix and I find it quite stupid to do so, unless you have a complete disregard towards money.
I usually spend about half as much time on both decisionmaking & "physical play" (the time it takes for me to tap permanents, play spells, draw cards, etc) + I write down the cards in my opponent's turn.
Haven't had an unintentional draw since mid-2008 (a control mirror in a Standard GP), so it should be fine
Well, that makes all the difference.