At FNM-level tournaments and above, do you really have to announce every single trigger of every card you cast or else it's missed? I know this rule has changed at least once so I don't know the current standing on it. I'm just having a hard time understanding why an ability that doesn't have "may" in it is missed if not announced.
The rule is that you must somehow acknowledge the trigger by the time it has a visible effect on the game state.
So that can be as simple as saying "take 2" when attacking alone with an Aven Squire, since that shows that you are acknowledging the Exalted trigger.
You aren't required to explicitly say "and I declare [this trigger] is on the stack" every time an ability triggers. Just be clear that you know it exists.
At REL Regular the only difference between the Competitive policy is that at Regular we try to place the trigger on the stack right away if it's not too disruptive to do so. What dreams a trigger too disruptive? Well, how much time has passed, and how many game actions have been taken play a role in making the determination which the judge will assess. Basically, if it's too complex and weird, don't do it.
At all REL's you never need to point out a non-detrimental missed trigger your opponent missed. You also (at competitive) have the option of allowing the trigger to be put on the stack or not, so long as it was caught within a turn (from when it was missed on my turn perhaps, till the end of that exact same step or phase).
So what makes a trigger "missed"? Basically if you haven't demonstrated awareness of it when it would matter, then you missed it. Needed to pick targets and didn't? Missed. Move forward in the game without taking some physical action related to the trigger like moving a dude somewhere or changing life (keep in mind, people can respond to the trigger before it would resolve)? Missed. Did the trigger change the rules of the game and you didn't stop an opponent from following those new rules that your trigger made? Missed. Did the trigger affect something non-visible like exalted and they said "take 3" when it should have been a 4/4? Missed.
This is just a very vague and quick explanation. I would HIGHLY recommend you inspect the current Infraction Procedure Guide and look up "missed trigger" for more details. Also, remember what the difference is between things that are triggers and things that aren't. Dark Confidant? Trigger. Blood Scrivener? Replacement effect. Two totally different things.
At REL Regular the only difference between the Competitive policy is that at Regular we try to place the trigger on the stack right away if it's not too disruptive to do so. What dreams a trigger too disruptive? Well, how much time has passed, and how many game actions have been taken play a role in making the determination which the judge will assess. Basically, if it's too complex and weird, don't do it.
At all REL's you never need to point out a non-detrimental missed trigger your opponent missed. You also (at competitive) have the option of allowing the trigger to be put on the stack or not, so long as it was caught within a turn (from when it was missed on my turn perhaps, till the end of that exact same step or phase).
So what makes a trigger "missed"? Basically if you haven't demonstrated awareness of it when it would matter, then you missed it. Needed to pick targets and didn't? Missed. Move forward in the game without taking some physical action related to the trigger like moving a dude somewhere or changing life (keep in mind, people can respond to the trigger before it would resolve)? Missed. Did the trigger change the rules of the game and you didn't stop an opponent from following those new rules that your trigger made? Missed. Did the trigger affect something non-visible like exalted and they said "take 3" when it should have been a 4/4? Missed.
This is just a very vague and quick explanation. I would HIGHLY recommend you inspect the current Infraction Procedure Guide and look up "missed trigger" for more details. Also, remember what the difference is between things that are triggers and things that aren't. Dark Confidant? Trigger. Blood Scrivener? Replacement effect. Two totally different things.
You offered really good explanations, but I guess I need examples to help.
I was playing a game earlier. I attacked with Pyreheart Wolf and another creature. My opponent thought for a moment, then moved his only creature to block one of mine. I pointed out that he couldn't block because of the Wolf's ability, then someone from outside the game chimed in and told me he's allowed to block because I didn't announce the Wolf's "attacks" trigger.
Based on what you've said about rewinding, how long it's been since the trigger was missed, etc, I'm still confused as to whether my opponent could actually call me on that missed trigger. And if so, does that mean that I have to declare Pyreheart Wolf's ability or else it's missed? Because I can't see any way to acknowledge that I know of it's existence outside of flat out announcing it. Basically, I don't want to get rulessharked into a loss.
Seems to me that you noticed the effect before/as it would have a visible effect on the game...by pointing out that your opponent can't block with a single creature.
And what was the person that made the comment thinking. As I understand it, spectators should never comment on a game.match in progress. As always, if there's a question, call a judge.
Everyone knows that good luck and good game are such insincere terms that any man who does not connect his right hook with the offender's jaw on the very utterance of such a phrase is no man I would consider as such.
In the case of Pyreheart Wolf, it's enough to stop your opponent from blocking illegally. The spectator was wrong in this case.
Quote from "Infraction Procedure Guide" »
A triggered ability that changes the rules of the game: The controller must prevent an opponent from taking any resulting illegal action.
Note that despite the quote above, you don't have to wait until your opponent blocks. You can notify your opponent of the triggered ability as soon as it is put on the stack.
I was playing a game earlier. I attacked with Pyreheart Wolf and another creature. My opponent thought for a moment, then moved his only creature to block one of mine. I pointed out that he couldn't block because of the Wolf's ability, then someone from outside the game chimed in and told me he's allowed to block because I didn't announce the Wolf's "attacks" trigger.
Based on what you've said about rewinding, how long it's been since the trigger was missed, etc, I'm still confused as to whether my opponent could actually call me on that missed trigger. And if so, does that mean that I have to declare Pyreheart Wolf's ability or else it's missed? Because I can't see any way to acknowledge that I know of it's existence outside of flat out announcing it. Basically, I don't want to get rulessharked into a loss.
Well the point in which you missed the trigger is when you allowed him to block with his creature, despite the rule stating that he needed to double block that turn. If you have been like "no man, you can't do that because of this" then you would have demonstrated awareness of the trigger when it would have an impact on the game, and not after other decisions were made. Wait... you mean you did demonstrate awareness just like I described above, and like you stated above that? Well then, when did you miss the trigger?
If you had missed the triggers, perhaps by saying something like "yeah, that's fine... oh wait, it can't do that because of his ability" then at Competitive your opponent would be tasked with determining if you got the trigger or not in that scenario after you two called over a judge. If this had been a regular event like you mentioned in your initial post, then I'd be willing to wager (but not really, because that would get me DQ'd) that there hasn't been much going on since you stated "attack" and they stated "block" for the game state to be too complex to place the missed trigger on the stack like I talked about earlier. Wait... you mean to tell me this was at FNM, a regular REL event?! Man, lay your cards on the table before you come swinging with questions, slugger.
Well, thanks guys. Literally all that happened between me declaring the attack and him trying to block was a few seconds of silence. It wasn't at an actual FNM, but I was curious about higher levels because the guy argued pretty heavily with me about it and informed me that it's a scummy but totally legit rule and he would gladly use it against me at FNM and even in casual because it benefits him to make me miss the trigger and he's perfectly allowed to do it.
I argued but he was absolutely convinced that because I didn't announce the "you can't block" trigger when I attacked with the wolf that I had missed it. The guy I was playing with agreed with him but decided to "let it slide".
Well, thanks guys. Literally all that happened between me declaring the attack and him trying to block was a few seconds of silence. It wasn't at an actual FNM, but I was curious about higher levels because the guy argued pretty heavily with me about it and informed me that it's a scummy but totally legit rule and he would gladly use it against me at FNM and even in casual because it benefits him to make me miss the trigger and he's perfectly allowed to do it.
Just want to point out that outside of a tournament setting (casual), it is actually impossible to miss a trigger. Triggers happen whether you want them to or not and if it is noticed that a trigger wasn't performed then it is up to you and your opponent to work out how to handle the effect that was missed (judges do this at tournaments). It is cheating if they know a trigger was supposed to happen but ignored it in order to gain an advantage.
The IPG and JAR are the only reasons that triggers are handled a different way in tournaments and have no bearing on non tournament play.
Relevant trigger ability rules from MCR, note there is never a may in any of these.
603.2. Whenever a game event or game state matches a triggered ability's trigger event, that ability automatically triggers. The ability doesn't do anything at this point.
603.3. Once an ability has triggered, its controller puts it on the stack as an object that's not a card the next time a player would receive priority. See rule 116, "Timing and Priority." The ability becomes the topmost object on the stack. It has the text of the ability that created it, and no other characteristics. It remains on the stack until it's countered, it resolves, a rule causes it to be removed from the stack, or an effect moves it elsewhere.
Relevant tournament rule from MCR
100.6. Most _Magic_ tournaments (organized play activities where players compete against other players to win prizes) have additional rules covered in the _Magic: The Gathering_ Tournament Rules (found at <www.wizards.com/wpn/Events/Rules.aspx>). These rules may limit the use of some cards, including barring all cards from some older sets.
From TheFreeDictionary online
cheat (cht)
v. cheat·ed, cheat·ing, cheats
v.tr.
~
2. To violate rules deliberately, as in a game: was accused of cheating at cards.
On a personal note, I have stopped playing in tournament settings because of the change to the trigger rules applied in the IPG as it allows players to cheat and not be penalized for it. And I have no problem calling my opponents cheaters in a casual game if they try to apply the tournament changes.
Just want to point out that outside of a tournament setting (casual), it is actually impossible to miss a trigger.
That statement is only true in a fictitious world in which nobody ever makes mistakes. Triggers are supposed to happen automatically, but players need to execute those automatic instructions. Since players are human beings, they occasionally forget to execute those automatic instructions. That's as true in casual play as it is in tournament play.
[The IPG] allows players to cheat and not be penalized for it.
Incorrect. Cheating by deliberately "missing" a trigger will get you disqualified. The "Missed Trigger" rule only applies to cases where players accidentally miss a trigger.
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That statement is only true in a fictitious world in which nobody ever makes mistakes. Triggers are supposed to happen automatically, but players need to execute those automatic instructions. Since players are human beings, they occasionally forget to execute those automatic instructions. That's as true in casual play as it is in tournament play.
Fictitious world or not that is still how the rules of the game work and that doesn't mean that the trigger didn't happen, it just means the players are unaware that it happened. Hence my statement in bold below. So I still stand by the statement that triggers are impossible to miss but the effect of the trigger can go unnoticed for the rest of the game and as such puts the integrity of that game in question.
Triggers happen whether you want them to or not and if it is noticed that a trigger wasn't performed then it is up to you and your opponent to work out how to handle the effect that was missed (judges do this at tournaments).
Incorrect. Cheating by deliberately "missing" a trigger will get you disqualified. The "Missed Trigger" rule only applies to cases where players accidentally miss a trigger.
I wasn't completely clear here, I meant this as a player ignoring his opponents forgotten beneficial trigger, IE One Thousand Lashes's upkeep trigger, is cheating by the game rules but isn't penalized. Not the player ignoring their own trigger, IE upkeep trigger granted by Pillory of the sleepless.
You offered really good explanations, but I guess I need examples to help.
I was playing a game earlier. I attacked with Pyreheart Wolf and another creature. My opponent thought for a moment, then moved his only creature to block one of mine. I pointed out that he couldn't block because of the Wolf's ability, then someone from outside the game chimed in and told me he's allowed to block because I didn't announce the Wolf's "attacks" trigger.
Based on what you've said about rewinding, how long it's been since the trigger was missed, etc, I'm still confused as to whether my opponent could actually call me on that missed trigger. And if so, does that mean that I have to declare Pyreheart Wolf's ability or else it's missed? Because I can't see any way to acknowledge that I know of it's existence outside of flat out announcing it. Basically, I don't want to get rulessharked into a loss.
The person outside the game is wrong with the current writing of the rules. You must acknowledge your triggers at the first time they would have a significant impact and/or be placed on the stack. As long as nothing else happened on the declare attackers step, declaration of blockers is the first time the ability is relevant and its fine to mention it here and have it happen. The MTR do not want you to get rulesharked in this situation.
Also note when doing things that aren't combat-related that the rules re: out of order sequencing may also apply (you have Champion of the Parish in play, drop 3 Burning-Tree Emmissary and a Lightning Mauler, place 4 counters on your champion and turn the appropriate cards sideways. This is Out of Order Sequencing (technically you add 1 counter in between each creature), but if the opponent wants you to play that out in the correct order, what they have to do is ask you not to shortcut it, they can't claim that by only speaking champion's trigger once you missed the other 3.
That kind of rules lawyering is highly discouraged. Also, people outside your game shouldn't be interpretting rules for you, especially if not asked. At a small draft or informal tournament it may make sense to ask an experienced nearby player if there isn't an official judge (ie because the TO is the de-facto judge), but they should never be interceding without being asked and they have no right to be involved unless you want them to be.
Triggers happen whether you want them to or not and if it is noticed that a trigger wasn't performed then it is up to you and your opponent to work out how to handle the effect that was missed (judges do this at tournaments).
Outside of sanctioned magic, I suppose this is correct. You guy have your own fixes that you can use if you want. The current official documents have some pretty good ones, but you're welcome to deviate if you so choose at kitchen table magic.
It is cheating if they know a trigger was supposed to happen but ignored it in order to gain an advantage.
Cheating implies knowledge that you're breaking a rule, and an intent to gain an advantage from it. I really like how the current documents have included this into their official definition as it matches up well with the definition you listed. In order to deliberately break the rules, you have to be trying to cheat. Accidentally forgetting something does not make one a cheater.
The IPG and JAR are the only reasons that triggers are handled a different way in tournaments and have no bearing on non tournament play.
They're documents that govern how we handle things like missed triggers in a fair and either casual or competitive way. You're right though, they're just documents that govern sanctioned play and have no bearing on casual "kitchen table magic". Do I care as a judge what you guys do at your own casual games? Not a bit. Heck, bribe or wager for all I care, beat each other up, and penalize it with a beer bong challenge round.
On a personal note, I have stopped playing in tournament settings because of the change to the trigger rules applied in the IPG as it allows players to cheat and not be penalized for it. And I have no problem calling my opponents cheaters in a casual game if they try to apply the tournament changes.
You might be mistaking what a cheater is. Again, who care if it's not sanctioned? You can call a five year old a disgusting cheater for
playing with marked cards because he got some of his PB&J on his deck, and state that he was trying to manipulate the backs of his cards to gain an unfair advantage to continue his deplorable cheating habits. Doesn't make it true, but does make for a good read.
Fictitious world or not that is still how the rules of the game work and that doesn't mean that the trigger didn't happen, it just means the players are unaware that it happened. Hence my statement in bold below. So I still stand by the statement that triggers are impossible to miss but the effect of the trigger can go unnoticed for the rest of the game and as such puts the integrity of that game in question.
If players miss a trigger in any type of play, it was "missed", forgotten, didn't happen, wasn't executed, never occurred, coulda-woulda-shoulda but didn't. Triggers are totally possible to miss. You didn't notice your trigger? You forgot it happened then. You both missed your trigger? Then you both forgot it happened. The game doesn't adjust life totals for this trigger that happened, but didn't actually happen, you two do. And if you missed it, you probably also missed the effect it had on the game (including my hypothetical life change).
Now, in kitchen table casual, we could try to back up the game to the point of the error. Although that might be difficult if many actions have been made, and you two aren't really sure how you got to where you are now. A correct gamestate that was arrived to with a single incorrect actions isn't nearly as bad as attempting to make a correct gamestate by revealing and reversing a TON of strategic information, that may not even be reversed correctly. You could also just apply the missed trigger right away, but that might not seem fair if it happened 5 turns ago, and would impact the now totally different game state. That trigger that whipped the board five turns ago that was missed? Yeah, it's going to kill 3 new dudes now. Finally you could just call the dude a cheater and kick him out of your house, or challenge him to a physical duel in order to defend your tables honor and cereal! But honestly, whatever man. This is a casual game? You can do whatever you want. IDGAF.
I wasn't completely clear here, I meant this as a player ignoring his opponents forgotten beneficial trigger, IE One Thousand Lashes's upkeep trigger, is cheating by the game rules but isn't penalized. Not the player ignoring their own trigger, IE upkeep trigger granted by Pillory of the sleepless.
Intentionally missing your opponents non-beneficial triggers is not cheating (if we follow the current IPG). Of course that's been the complete opposite before by older documents. This changes, and so do philosophies behind them. Though you seem not to be governed by these documents as your examples pertain to casual magic, so honestly follow whatever you think is fair when playing with friends. Just don't be surprised when they think what you think isn't fair either. :/
Also note when doing things that aren't combat-related that the rules re: out of order sequencing may also apply (you have Champion of the Parish in play, drop 3 Burning-Tree Emmissary and a Lightning Mauler, place 4 counters on your champion and turn the appropriate cards sideways. This is Out of Order Sequencing (technically you add 1 counter in between each creature), but if the opponent wants you to play that out in the correct order, what they have to do is ask you not to shortcut it, they can't claim that by only speaking champion's trigger once you missed the other 3.
Doh! I knew I forgot to cover something; OoOS (Out of Order Sequencing).
Outside of sanctioned magic, I suppose this is correct. You guy have your own fixes that you can use if you want. The current official documents have some pretty good ones, but you're welcome to deviate if you so choose at kitchen table magic.
I agree the O'docs have some great fixes, but I disagree that the missed trigger policy is one of them.
Cheating implies knowledge that you're breaking a rule, and an intent to gain an advantage from it. I really like how the current documents have included this into their official definition as it matches up well with the definition you listed. In order to deliberately break the rules, you have to be trying to cheat. Accidentally forgetting something does not make one a cheater.
This is exactly what i said and I never said anything about accidentally forgetting a trigger.
They're documents that govern how we handle things like missed triggers in a fair and either casual or competitive way. You're right though, they're just documents that govern sanctioned play and have no bearing on casual "kitchen table magic". Do I care as a judge what you guys do at your own casual games? Not a bit. Heck, bribe or wager for all I care, beat each other up, and penalize it with a beer bong challenge round.
I agree, and am in no way suggesting not following these documents when playing in a tournament. This was mostly in response to the OPs comment that the person would apply these "rules" to a casual game where they have no weight.
You might be mistaking what a cheater is. Again, who care if it's not sanctioned? You can call a five year old a disgusting cheater for
playing with marked cards because he got some of his PB&J on his deck, and state that he was trying to manipulate the backs of his cards to gain an unfair advantage to continue his deplorable cheating habits. Doesn't make it true, but does make for a good read.
In a casual setting if I put a One Thousand Lashes on their creature I expect them to take one damage on each of their upkeeps, and if they don't and I ask if they did and they say I don't have to because you didn't announce it, then they are cheating. If they accidentaly forget it then that is fine we fix what needs to be fixed and move on.
If players miss a trigger in any type of play, it was "missed", forgotten, didn't happen, wasn't executed, never occurred, coulda-woulda-shoulda but didn't. Triggers are totally possible to miss. You didn't notice your trigger? You forgot it happened then. You both missed your trigger? Then you both forgot it happened.
Again by your own statement, it happened.
Quote from Nero, Star Trek »
It has happened! I watched it happen!
I saw it happen!
Don't tell me it didn't happen!
The game doesn't adjust life totals for this trigger that happened, but didn't actually happen, you two do. And if you missed it, you probably also missed the effect it had on the game (including my hypothetical life change).
So then I assume if someone drops a can of soup on your foot and you didn't notice it happened then your foot doesn't get hurt? A bit extreme but I think it gets to the point since we use the vending machine and grenade annologies all the time.
Now, in kitchen table casual, we could try to back up the game to the point of the error. Although that might be difficult if many actions have been made, and you two aren't really sure how you got to where you are now. A correct gamestate that was arrived to with a single incorrect actions isn't nearly as bad as attempting to make a correct gamestate by revealing and reversing a TON of strategic information, that may not even be reversed correctly.
But it isn't correct, the game state is flawed and, in my opinion, adjusting the current game state to the correct game state is always more preferable to an incorrect game state. If it is completely undo-able then end the game as a draw and start a new one. I don't understand why this isn't an option for judges at events, just call that game a draw, issue whatever warnings/penalties are necessary and let them start a new game.
You could also just apply the missed trigger right away, but that might not seem fair if it happened 5 turns ago, and would impact the now totally different game state. That trigger that whipped the board five turns ago that was missed? Yeah, it's going to kill 3 new dudes now. Finally you could just call the dude a cheater and kick him out of your house, or challenge him to a physical duel in order to defend your tables honor and cereal! But honestly, whatever man. This is a casual game? You can do whatever you want. IDGAF.
Now your thinking like a judge, not a problem most of the time since you are a judge, but why do we have to put the trigger on the stack and resolve it when it already did that. You only need to adjust what would have been affected at the time the trigger happened. And if it can't be agreed upon then start a new game and be more careful. And I wouldn't accuse someone of cheating out of spite, I would look for evidence of it first, specifically the aforementioned announcement that they didn't do something because the trigger wasn't announced/acknowledged.
Intentionally missing your opponents non-beneficial triggers is not cheating (if we follow the current IPG). Of course that's been the complete opposite before by older documents. This changes, and so do philosophies behind them. Though you seem not to be governed by these documents as your examples pertain to casual magic, so honestly follow whatever you think is fair when playing with friends. Just don't be surprised when they think what you think isn't fair either. :/
I do believe this sums up my point exactly, it is only not treated as cheating because of the current IPG. Without the IPG this would be cheating as you are trying to gain an advantage by ignoring a game rule.
I do believe this sums up my point exactly, it is only not treated as cheating because of the current IPG. Without the IPG this would be cheating as you are trying to gain an advantage by ignoring a game rule.
Incorrect. There is no game rule stating that the opponent of the trigger's controller is responsible for its correct resolution. The game rule puts that responsibility on the trigger's controller.
Furthermore, there is no game rule (that I'm aware of) that requires players to point out game rule violations by their opponent. That requirement, and the definition that declares the deliberate failure to meet that requirement to be Cheating (except in cases of missed triggers), comes from the IPG.
It is your right to be unhappy about the IPG change that shifted triggers from a both-players responsibility to a controller-only responsibility, but the Rulings forum is not the right venue for complaining about this change.
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So that can be as simple as saying "take 2" when attacking alone with an Aven Squire, since that shows that you are acknowledging the Exalted trigger.
You aren't required to explicitly say "and I declare [this trigger] is on the stack" every time an ability triggers. Just be clear that you know it exists.
At all REL's you never need to point out a non-detrimental missed trigger your opponent missed. You also (at competitive) have the option of allowing the trigger to be put on the stack or not, so long as it was caught within a turn (from when it was missed on my turn perhaps, till the end of that exact same step or phase).
So what makes a trigger "missed"? Basically if you haven't demonstrated awareness of it when it would matter, then you missed it. Needed to pick targets and didn't? Missed. Move forward in the game without taking some physical action related to the trigger like moving a dude somewhere or changing life (keep in mind, people can respond to the trigger before it would resolve)? Missed. Did the trigger change the rules of the game and you didn't stop an opponent from following those new rules that your trigger made? Missed. Did the trigger affect something non-visible like exalted and they said "take 3" when it should have been a 4/4? Missed.
This is just a very vague and quick explanation. I would HIGHLY recommend you inspect the current Infraction Procedure Guide and look up "missed trigger" for more details. Also, remember what the difference is between things that are triggers and things that aren't. Dark Confidant? Trigger. Blood Scrivener? Replacement effect. Two totally different things.
You offered really good explanations, but I guess I need examples to help.
I was playing a game earlier. I attacked with Pyreheart Wolf and another creature. My opponent thought for a moment, then moved his only creature to block one of mine. I pointed out that he couldn't block because of the Wolf's ability, then someone from outside the game chimed in and told me he's allowed to block because I didn't announce the Wolf's "attacks" trigger.
Based on what you've said about rewinding, how long it's been since the trigger was missed, etc, I'm still confused as to whether my opponent could actually call me on that missed trigger. And if so, does that mean that I have to declare Pyreheart Wolf's ability or else it's missed? Because I can't see any way to acknowledge that I know of it's existence outside of flat out announcing it. Basically, I don't want to get rulessharked into a loss.
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And what was the person that made the comment thinking. As I understand it, spectators should never comment on a game.match in progress. As always, if there's a question, call a judge.
- To my youngest sister when she was 6.
Well the point in which you missed the trigger is when you allowed him to block with his creature, despite the rule stating that he needed to double block that turn. If you have been like "no man, you can't do that because of this" then you would have demonstrated awareness of the trigger when it would have an impact on the game, and not after other decisions were made. Wait... you mean you did demonstrate awareness just like I described above, and like you stated above that? Well then, when did you miss the trigger?
If you had missed the triggers, perhaps by saying something like "yeah, that's fine... oh wait, it can't do that because of his ability" then at Competitive your opponent would be tasked with determining if you got the trigger or not in that scenario after you two called over a judge. If this had been a regular event like you mentioned in your initial post, then I'd be willing to wager (but not really, because that would get me DQ'd) that there hasn't been much going on since you stated "attack" and they stated "block" for the game state to be too complex to place the missed trigger on the stack like I talked about earlier. Wait... you mean to tell me this was at FNM, a regular REL event?! Man, lay your cards on the table before you come swinging with questions, slugger.
I argued but he was absolutely convinced that because I didn't announce the "you can't block" trigger when I attacked with the wolf that I had missed it. The guy I was playing with agreed with him but decided to "let it slide".
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Just want to point out that outside of a tournament setting (casual), it is actually impossible to miss a trigger. Triggers happen whether you want them to or not and if it is noticed that a trigger wasn't performed then it is up to you and your opponent to work out how to handle the effect that was missed (judges do this at tournaments). It is cheating if they know a trigger was supposed to happen but ignored it in order to gain an advantage.
The IPG and JAR are the only reasons that triggers are handled a different way in tournaments and have no bearing on non tournament play.
Relevant trigger ability rules from MCR, note there is never a may in any of these.
Relevant tournament rule from MCR
From TheFreeDictionary online
On a personal note, I have stopped playing in tournament settings because of the change to the trigger rules applied in the IPG as it allows players to cheat and not be penalized for it. And I have no problem calling my opponents cheaters in a casual game if they try to apply the tournament changes.
That statement is only true in a fictitious world in which nobody ever makes mistakes. Triggers are supposed to happen automatically, but players need to execute those automatic instructions. Since players are human beings, they occasionally forget to execute those automatic instructions. That's as true in casual play as it is in tournament play.
Incorrect. Cheating by deliberately "missing" a trigger will get you disqualified. The "Missed Trigger" rule only applies to cases where players accidentally miss a trigger.
Please use card tags when you're asking a question about specific cards: [c]Serra Angel[/c] -> Serra Angel.
Fictitious world or not that is still how the rules of the game work and that doesn't mean that the trigger didn't happen, it just means the players are unaware that it happened. Hence my statement in bold below. So I still stand by the statement that triggers are impossible to miss but the effect of the trigger can go unnoticed for the rest of the game and as such puts the integrity of that game in question.
I wasn't completely clear here, I meant this as a player ignoring his opponents forgotten beneficial trigger, IE One Thousand Lashes's upkeep trigger, is cheating by the game rules but isn't penalized. Not the player ignoring their own trigger, IE upkeep trigger granted by Pillory of the sleepless.
The person outside the game is wrong with the current writing of the rules. You must acknowledge your triggers at the first time they would have a significant impact and/or be placed on the stack. As long as nothing else happened on the declare attackers step, declaration of blockers is the first time the ability is relevant and its fine to mention it here and have it happen. The MTR do not want you to get rulesharked in this situation.
Also note when doing things that aren't combat-related that the rules re: out of order sequencing may also apply (you have Champion of the Parish in play, drop 3 Burning-Tree Emmissary and a Lightning Mauler, place 4 counters on your champion and turn the appropriate cards sideways. This is Out of Order Sequencing (technically you add 1 counter in between each creature), but if the opponent wants you to play that out in the correct order, what they have to do is ask you not to shortcut it, they can't claim that by only speaking champion's trigger once you missed the other 3.
That kind of rules lawyering is highly discouraged. Also, people outside your game shouldn't be interpretting rules for you, especially if not asked. At a small draft or informal tournament it may make sense to ask an experienced nearby player if there isn't an official judge (ie because the TO is the de-facto judge), but they should never be interceding without being asked and they have no right to be involved unless you want them to be.
Lurker. Rules Advisor. Sleepy.
Outside of sanctioned magic, I suppose this is correct. You guy have your own fixes that you can use if you want. The current official documents have some pretty good ones, but you're welcome to deviate if you so choose at kitchen table magic.
Cheating implies knowledge that you're breaking a rule, and an intent to gain an advantage from it. I really like how the current documents have included this into their official definition as it matches up well with the definition you listed. In order to deliberately break the rules, you have to be trying to cheat. Accidentally forgetting something does not make one a cheater.
They're documents that govern how we handle things like missed triggers in a fair and either casual or competitive way. You're right though, they're just documents that govern sanctioned play and have no bearing on casual "kitchen table magic". Do I care as a judge what you guys do at your own casual games? Not a bit. Heck, bribe or wager for all I care, beat each other up, and penalize it with a beer bong challenge round.
You might be mistaking what a cheater is. Again, who care if it's not sanctioned? You can call a five year old a disgusting cheater for
playing with marked cards because he got some of his PB&J on his deck, and state that he was trying to manipulate the backs of his cards to gain an unfair advantage to continue his deplorable cheating habits. Doesn't make it true, but does make for a good read.
If players miss a trigger in any type of play, it was "missed", forgotten, didn't happen, wasn't executed, never occurred, coulda-woulda-shoulda but didn't. Triggers are totally possible to miss. You didn't notice your trigger? You forgot it happened then. You both missed your trigger? Then you both forgot it happened. The game doesn't adjust life totals for this trigger that happened, but didn't actually happen, you two do. And if you missed it, you probably also missed the effect it had on the game (including my hypothetical life change).
Now, in kitchen table casual, we could try to back up the game to the point of the error. Although that might be difficult if many actions have been made, and you two aren't really sure how you got to where you are now. A correct gamestate that was arrived to with a single incorrect actions isn't nearly as bad as attempting to make a correct gamestate by revealing and reversing a TON of strategic information, that may not even be reversed correctly. You could also just apply the missed trigger right away, but that might not seem fair if it happened 5 turns ago, and would impact the now totally different game state. That trigger that whipped the board five turns ago that was missed? Yeah, it's going to kill 3 new dudes now. Finally you could just call the dude a cheater and kick him out of your house, or challenge him to a physical duel in order to defend your tables honor and cereal! But honestly, whatever man. This is a casual game? You can do whatever you want. IDGAF.
Intentionally missing your opponents non-beneficial triggers is not cheating (if we follow the current IPG). Of course that's been the complete opposite before by older documents. This changes, and so do philosophies behind them. Though you seem not to be governed by these documents as your examples pertain to casual magic, so honestly follow whatever you think is fair when playing with friends. Just don't be surprised when they think what you think isn't fair either. :/
Doh! I knew I forgot to cover something; OoOS (Out of Order Sequencing).
By your own statement, it happened.
I agree the O'docs have some great fixes, but I disagree that the missed trigger policy is one of them.
This is exactly what i said and I never said anything about accidentally forgetting a trigger.
I agree, and am in no way suggesting not following these documents when playing in a tournament. This was mostly in response to the OPs comment that the person would apply these "rules" to a casual game where they have no weight.
In a casual setting if I put a One Thousand Lashes on their creature I expect them to take one damage on each of their upkeeps, and if they don't and I ask if they did and they say I don't have to because you didn't announce it, then they are cheating. If they accidentaly forget it then that is fine we fix what needs to be fixed and move on.
Again by your own statement, it happened.
So then I assume if someone drops a can of soup on your foot and you didn't notice it happened then your foot doesn't get hurt? A bit extreme but I think it gets to the point since we use the vending machine and grenade annologies all the time.
But it isn't correct, the game state is flawed and, in my opinion, adjusting the current game state to the correct game state is always more preferable to an incorrect game state. If it is completely undo-able then end the game as a draw and start a new one. I don't understand why this isn't an option for judges at events, just call that game a draw, issue whatever warnings/penalties are necessary and let them start a new game.
Now your thinking like a judge, not a problem most of the time since you are a judge, but why do we have to put the trigger on the stack and resolve it when it already did that. You only need to adjust what would have been affected at the time the trigger happened. And if it can't be agreed upon then start a new game and be more careful. And I wouldn't accuse someone of cheating out of spite, I would look for evidence of it first, specifically the aforementioned announcement that they didn't do something because the trigger wasn't announced/acknowledged.
I do believe this sums up my point exactly, it is only not treated as cheating because of the current IPG. Without the IPG this would be cheating as you are trying to gain an advantage by ignoring a game rule.
Incorrect. There is no game rule stating that the opponent of the trigger's controller is responsible for its correct resolution. The game rule puts that responsibility on the trigger's controller.
Furthermore, there is no game rule (that I'm aware of) that requires players to point out game rule violations by their opponent. That requirement, and the definition that declares the deliberate failure to meet that requirement to be Cheating (except in cases of missed triggers), comes from the IPG.
It is your right to be unhappy about the IPG change that shifted triggers from a both-players responsibility to a controller-only responsibility, but the Rulings forum is not the right venue for complaining about this change.
Thread locked.
Please use card tags when you're asking a question about specific cards: [c]Serra Angel[/c] -> Serra Angel.