I went to FNM last week for the first time since Guildpact and did not enjoy myself with the locals teasing me about my deck containing so much basic land. I also grew tired of watching the same old progression of Shock Land-Shock Land-Shock Land-Shock Land-Mythic-Mythic-Mythic of whatever colors their heart desired and so on. I feel this crap leaves no real hope for players who don't have 500 bucks to spend on their decks or newer, younger players just getting started and trying to have some fun. If WotC keeps making it seem like you can't be any good at Magic unless you shovel outs tons of $$, they're going to watch their player base shrink until it starts to look like a Heroclix tournament--one person getting a bye watching the other 2 play *laugh* I drove home Friday night after my respectful 2-2 finish hoping for a Type 2 Ravenous Baboons, Price Of Progress, hell, Dryad Sophisticate, SOMETHING. Woke up the next morning to find this on the spoiler. It's a nice shred of hope. Make people at least think about finding some cards such as "Island" or "Swamp" to put in their decks. I just hope for more like this, as well as a few more cards to deal with 'walkers.
Totally agree Phyrexianweezil, FNMs shouldnt be about $$, i find myself always bullied couse am the only one on my lgs not playing tier1 decks on fridays hahaha.
Come on people just look at current Standard decks... 10-12 shocklands, 9-11 taplands, 1-2 utility lands (Township, Vault of the Archangel), some Cavern of Souls... most decks run zero basics, which even made some Esper players run a 1-of Ghost Quarter instead of the 4th Drownyard back in Pro Tour Gatecrash.
This is a serious card. The fact you, as a Mono Red/RG aggro/etc player can play this and keep playing spells normally is huge. Decks will have to either ditch a color or get considerably less greedy, using Keyrunes/Cluestones to help the mana and up the basic land count to 6-7.
Come on people just look at current Standard decks... 10-12 shocklands, 9-11 taplands, 1-2 utility lands (Township, Vault of the Archangel), some Cavern of Souls... most decks run zero basics, which even made some Esper players run a 1-of Ghost Quarter instead of the 4th Drownyard back in Pro Tour Gatecrash.
This is a serious card. The fact you, as a Mono Red/RG aggro/etc player can play this and keep playing spells normally is huge. Decks will have to either ditch a color or get considerably less greedy, using Keyrunes/Cluestones to help the mana and up the basic land count to 6-7.
Great card, will see tons of SB play.
Decks will absolutely not adjust their mana because of this card. There are answers to it (Acidic Slime, D. Sphere. etc.). Don't get me wrong, it's a great card, but manabase won't become less good because of it. It's a risk decks are going to take.
Dodges Abrupt Decay. People would cry about Manabarbs dying to abrupt decay anyways....
Manabarbs and Burning Earth have the same casting cost, 3R. Even if they have the Detention Sphere they're losing three life in the process... Oh wait, they might have two or three basic lands and lose only 0-1 life. I'd much rather have Manabarbs, a reliable card. Not to say this card is bad, but it's better to spend a few life to guarantee your opponents are always paying the full amount of life (can't play around Barbs), especially considering you're mono-red playing against control/ramp.. In that matchup you're only really looking at your opponent's life total.
@ st@r - there's a 0.05% chance that this card makes people alter their mana bases and/or use Clue Stones. We're talking 'bout Clue Stones, man! You should be side boarding things that are good against fast aggro/ burn anyway, how about --I don't know-- gaining life?!?
My izzet will be playing this. Many decks will just cry when you place one on the battlefield. Advantage in mid-game/control decks nowadays is given by shocklands and life gaining. This one affects both at the same time. People will diverge in terms of using this card on their respective decks, but I'm sure that this card will be seen in tier1 decks, 1-2 copies.
Decks will absolutely not adjust their mana because of this card. There are answers to it (Acidic Slime, D. Sphere. etc.). Don't get me wrong, it's a great card, but manabase won't become less good because of it. It's a risk decks are going to take.
I didn't mean that as fact, and of course there are answers, but being able to minimize this card's impact simply by running 6-7 basics (even 2 basics in play will help a lot) is going to be a consideration. Also, nor every deck can run Slime or Sphere - Raka and Grixis-colored decks can't, to name some.
Also, if your manabase has 0-2 basics, casting that Sphere/Slime is going to cost you AT LEAST 3-5 life, and you have to cast it right away or risk losing even more life. Forcing your opponent to play the exact card and still lose life in the process is going to be huge for red aggro decks.
This is an inferior manabarbs, nothing more. Much like manabarbs, you can respond to it by floating mana and then destroying it, taking no damage in the process. Even if your opponent has to use sorcery speed removal for it, they're only going to take about 3 damage. At four mana, thats hardly efficient.
Sure, if your opponent can't answer it AND relies heavily on non-basics they lose, but that's true of a lot of 4 drops.
This is an inferior manabarbs, nothing more. Much like manabarbs, you can respond to it by floating mana and then destroying it, taking no damage in the process. Even if your opponent has to use sorcery speed removal for it, they're only going to take about 3 damage. At four mana, thats hardly efficient.
Sure, if your opponent can't answer it AND relies heavily on non-basics they lose, but that's true of a lot of 4 drops.
That's true of a lot of 4-drop CREATURES. This being an enchantment, thus diversifying your offense, is why it will see play.
I think the most relevant issue right now is just the space. Hellrider is SO good. It will be tough to knock it out of the 4-drop spot in the decks that want this effect and those decks are unlikely to want extra 4-drops. So it might be a case of having to wait until Hellrider rotates before we really get to see this in action.
Except it's most likely going to be one-sided in the decks that run it.
What deck is that exactly? Gruul? Gruul is the only two color red deck putting up any wins, and it still runs on 40% nonbasic lands. It will hurt Gruul less than it will hurt tri-color decks, but its far from one sided.
Unless you're arguing this is somehow going to make monored tier 1, theres no deck where this card will be one sided.
What deck is that exactly? Gruul? Gruul is the only two color red deck putting up any wins, and it still runs on 40% nonbasic lands. It will hurt Gruul less than it will hurt tri-color decks, but its far from one sided.
Unless you're arguing this is somehow going to make monored tier 1, theres no deck where this card will be one sided.
To be fair, MonoRed was Tier1, but it was a more sligh style aggro build. In that style deck, this card would not be as useful as a Hellrider (except against control strategies that run lots of removal). But things change.
The glory of talking about these new cards -- as always -- is that the meta will change before or because of their release. Talking about this card in today's meta is nonsensical. We can base our guesses and theories off of today, but that is all.
Saying that this won't fit into any tier1 decks is, equally, nonsensical. We cannot know. This doesn't even need to be a mono-color-required deck. If you run 24 lands even in a 12/12 split, other than being subject to a TON of variance, you could theoretically play all basics. If you wanted to. No one likely would, but you could, and thus if it became the correct thing to do, people would.
Anyway, it's all theory, as is any talk of the future.
I do see this card being powerful if the surrounding cards help support a mono- or duo-colored deck. It will be strong against the three+ color decks regardless.
The glory of talking about these new cards -- as always -- is that the meta will change before or because of their release. Talking about this card in today's meta is nonsensical. We can base our guesses and theories off of today, but that is all.
Making baseless statements based on nothing is nonsensical. The current meta is the most relevant context we have for useful discussion. During the period where both m13 and m14 are legal, many of the current decks should still be viable. M14 might very well spawn a new archetype or two, but it won't push all the current decks out of the format.
You could also talk about its potential for when m13 leaves standard. Flint-hoof boar will be gone, so gruul would need a new 2 drop to play off BTE. In addition, Thragtusk's life gain had been a sizable problem for mono red, so his departure might pave the way for its return. Then it becomes a discussion of is Burning Earth worth giving up Ghor-clan rampager for? My thought is no, but arguing that it is is at least a much more defensible position.
Offering no basis for how a card with no home is going to redefine the format doesn't lead to productive discussion.
Its a sideboard card.
1) Is your opponent running non-basics? If so move to question 2.
2) Did you sideboard in your Burning Earths? If so move to question 3.
3) Did you actually play a Burning Earth against said nonbasic land deck?
I would personally keep four in my sideboard in case the matchup should occur in this standard enviroment.
Worse than Manabarbs or decent LD. Still should be played in a few mono-red standard sideboards because there is no Manabarbs.. The fact that it's a potentially one-sided effect doesn't really matter but the fact your opponent can play around it after it resolves makes it a real downgrade from good ol' 'barbs. You're not going to sideboard this in against any deck that can race you so not losing life for playing straight Mountains means very little. Consider me disappointed.
How many decks can "play around" this effect?
I mean show me these deck lists that are running more then 1-3 basics?
Maybe decks will have more basic lands in the future but anyone that has 3 colors in their deck has about 98% non-basic lands.
I mean show me these deck lists that are running more then 1-3 basics?
Maybe decks will have more basic lands in the future but anyone that has 3 colors in their deck has about 98% non-basic lands.
To me it's a Manabarbs with a loophole. Burning Earth still will see some sideboard play, but only because the Barbs effect is so strong, not because no one loses life for using basics.
There are two way to break the symmetry of this card:
1. play a fast aggro/burn deck, have cheap spells and deal a ton of damage quickly, basically lock out Sphinx's Revelation, Thragtusk, etc.
2. play a bunch of basic lands and hope your opponent only has nonbasics and can't kill you quickly
I would much rather go all-in on the first way. Using that method, Manabarbs is better--again, that's as a fast deck's way to lock out slow decks and there is no loophole. As far as the future metagame goes I'm not going to pretend I can predict it, but I'd agree that Burning Earth will see sideboard play regardless of its drawback.
To me it's a Manabarbs with a loophole. Burning Earth still will see some sideboard play, but only because the Barbs effect is so strong, not because no one loses life for using basics.
There are two way to break the symmetry of this card:
1. play a fast aggro/burn deck, have cheap spells and deal a ton of damage quickly, basically lock out Sphinx's Revelation, Thragtusk, etc.
2. play a bunch of basic lands and hope your opponent only has nonbasics and can't kill you quickly
I would much rather go all-in on the first way. Using that method, Manabarbs is better--again, that's as a fast deck's way to lock out slow decks and there is no loophole. As far as the future metagame goes I'm not going to pretend I can predict it, but I'd agree that Burning Earth will see sideboard play regardless of its drawback.
The 2nd option does not preclude you from running an agressive deck that runs mostly basics.
The 2nd option does not preclude you from running an agressive deck that runs mostly basics.
Of course it doesn't. In fact, Burning Earth will probably only see play in decks with plenty of Mountains. But in those decks you're more concerned about an opponent's life total than your own. For example, if you're playing Legacy Burn would you really play Volcanic Hammer over Flame Rift? You play Flame Rift because it does more damage. Even if you run into someone that doesn't have a single basic land in his/her deck Burning Earth is barely better than Manabarbs.
I'm amazed people think this is a side board only card. This format is dominated by multicolored decks running the best creatures/control. There are very few decent decks that are running basics so having this main board in an aggressive mono red or gruul deck imo will be insane. attack with efficient or hasty guys up to T4 then slam this and suddenly your opponent has no way to get out of reach instantly to recover. Come m14 i will probably play a gruul aggro deck wit 2-3 of this main board and watch as people complain about this card ruining them because they tapped out to answer my board on t4 and then slammed this when they were tapped out.
Keep in mind you can't lock out a Sphinx's revelation unless your opponent is at 3 or less life.
Oops misread what you said but technically it locks revelation out a little bit higher than that because you're taking 3 - X and drawing X cards so you can potentially put your self in lethal range with it.
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I went to FNM last week for the first time since Guildpact and did not enjoy myself with the locals teasing me about my deck containing so much basic land. I also grew tired of watching the same old progression of Shock Land-Shock Land-Shock Land-Shock Land-Mythic-Mythic-Mythic of whatever colors their heart desired and so on. I feel this crap leaves no real hope for players who don't have 500 bucks to spend on their decks or newer, younger players just getting started and trying to have some fun. If WotC keeps making it seem like you can't be any good at Magic unless you shovel outs tons of $$, they're going to watch their player base shrink until it starts to look like a Heroclix tournament--one person getting a bye watching the other 2 play *laugh* I drove home Friday night after my respectful 2-2 finish hoping for a Type 2 Ravenous Baboons, Price Of Progress, hell, Dryad Sophisticate, SOMETHING. Woke up the next morning to find this on the spoiler. It's a nice shred of hope. Make people at least think about finding some cards such as "Island" or "Swamp" to put in their decks. I just hope for more like this, as well as a few more cards to deal with 'walkers.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SY8h2vp5Xis
This is a serious card. The fact you, as a Mono Red/RG aggro/etc player can play this and keep playing spells normally is huge. Decks will have to either ditch a color or get considerably less greedy, using Keyrunes/Cluestones to help the mana and up the basic land count to 6-7.
Great card, will see tons of SB play.
I like how you worded your post here. It makes me think of this new enchantment as the red version of Rhystic Study. "Do you pay the :1mana:?"
Decks will absolutely not adjust their mana because of this card. There are answers to it (Acidic Slime, D. Sphere. etc.). Don't get me wrong, it's a great card, but manabase won't become less good because of it. It's a risk decks are going to take.
Manabarbs and Burning Earth have the same casting cost, 3R. Even if they have the Detention Sphere they're losing three life in the process... Oh wait, they might have two or three basic lands and lose only 0-1 life. I'd much rather have Manabarbs, a reliable card. Not to say this card is bad, but it's better to spend a few life to guarantee your opponents are always paying the full amount of life (can't play around Barbs), especially considering you're mono-red playing against control/ramp.. In that matchup you're only really looking at your opponent's life total.
@ st@r - there's a 0.05% chance that this card makes people alter their mana bases and/or use Clue Stones. We're talking 'bout Clue Stones, man! You should be side boarding things that are good against fast aggro/ burn anyway, how about --I don't know-- gaining life?!?
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I didn't mean that as fact, and of course there are answers, but being able to minimize this card's impact simply by running 6-7 basics (even 2 basics in play will help a lot) is going to be a consideration. Also, nor every deck can run Slime or Sphere - Raka and Grixis-colored decks can't, to name some.
Also, if your manabase has 0-2 basics, casting that Sphere/Slime is going to cost you AT LEAST 3-5 life, and you have to cast it right away or risk losing even more life. Forcing your opponent to play the exact card and still lose life in the process is going to be huge for red aggro decks.
Sure, if your opponent can't answer it AND relies heavily on non-basics they lose, but that's true of a lot of 4 drops.
That's true of a lot of 4-drop CREATURES. This being an enchantment, thus diversifying your offense, is why it will see play.
I think the most relevant issue right now is just the space. Hellrider is SO good. It will be tough to knock it out of the 4-drop spot in the decks that want this effect and those decks are unlikely to want extra 4-drops. So it might be a case of having to wait until Hellrider rotates before we really get to see this in action.
What deck is that exactly? Gruul? Gruul is the only two color red deck putting up any wins, and it still runs on 40% nonbasic lands. It will hurt Gruul less than it will hurt tri-color decks, but its far from one sided.
Unless you're arguing this is somehow going to make monored tier 1, theres no deck where this card will be one sided.
To be fair, MonoRed was Tier1, but it was a more sligh style aggro build. In that style deck, this card would not be as useful as a Hellrider (except against control strategies that run lots of removal). But things change.
The glory of talking about these new cards -- as always -- is that the meta will change before or because of their release. Talking about this card in today's meta is nonsensical. We can base our guesses and theories off of today, but that is all.
Saying that this won't fit into any tier1 decks is, equally, nonsensical. We cannot know. This doesn't even need to be a mono-color-required deck. If you run 24 lands even in a 12/12 split, other than being subject to a TON of variance, you could theoretically play all basics. If you wanted to. No one likely would, but you could, and thus if it became the correct thing to do, people would.
Anyway, it's all theory, as is any talk of the future.
I do see this card being powerful if the surrounding cards help support a mono- or duo-colored deck. It will be strong against the three+ color decks regardless.
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Making baseless statements based on nothing is nonsensical. The current meta is the most relevant context we have for useful discussion. During the period where both m13 and m14 are legal, many of the current decks should still be viable. M14 might very well spawn a new archetype or two, but it won't push all the current decks out of the format.
You could also talk about its potential for when m13 leaves standard. Flint-hoof boar will be gone, so gruul would need a new 2 drop to play off BTE. In addition, Thragtusk's life gain had been a sizable problem for mono red, so his departure might pave the way for its return. Then it becomes a discussion of is Burning Earth worth giving up Ghor-clan rampager for? My thought is no, but arguing that it is is at least a much more defensible position.
Offering no basis for how a card with no home is going to redefine the format doesn't lead to productive discussion.
1) Is your opponent running non-basics? If so move to question 2.
2) Did you sideboard in your Burning Earths? If so move to question 3.
3) Did you actually play a Burning Earth against said nonbasic land deck?
I would personally keep four in my sideboard in case the matchup should occur in this standard enviroment.
How many decks can "play around" this effect?
I mean show me these deck lists that are running more then 1-3 basics?
Maybe decks will have more basic lands in the future but anyone that has 3 colors in their deck has about 98% non-basic lands.
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To me it's a Manabarbs with a loophole. Burning Earth still will see some sideboard play, but only because the Barbs effect is so strong, not because no one loses life for using basics.
There are two way to break the symmetry of this card:
1. play a fast aggro/burn deck, have cheap spells and deal a ton of damage quickly, basically lock out Sphinx's Revelation, Thragtusk, etc.
2. play a bunch of basic lands and hope your opponent only has nonbasics and can't kill you quickly
I would much rather go all-in on the first way. Using that method, Manabarbs is better--again, that's as a fast deck's way to lock out slow decks and there is no loophole. As far as the future metagame goes I'm not going to pretend I can predict it, but I'd agree that Burning Earth will see sideboard play regardless of its drawback.
The 2nd option does not preclude you from running an agressive deck that runs mostly basics.
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Of course it doesn't. In fact, Burning Earth will probably only see play in decks with plenty of Mountains. But in those decks you're more concerned about an opponent's life total than your own. For example, if you're playing Legacy Burn would you really play Volcanic Hammer over Flame Rift? You play Flame Rift because it does more damage. Even if you run into someone that doesn't have a single basic land in his/her deck Burning Earth is barely better than Manabarbs.
Keep in mind you can't lock out a Sphinx's revelation unless your opponent is at 3 or less life.
Oops misread what you said but technically it locks revelation out a little bit higher than that because you're taking 3 - X and drawing X cards so you can potentially put your self in lethal range with it.