I've been playing with the "finishers" in my deck to in search of different win conditions outside of Aurelia/Obzedat as I feel both *can* be very strong, but are also only marginal depending on the situation. Both also carry a really heavy cost with 4 colored mana. Thundermaw is a great answer to these issues, but I feel Jund/Control have many instant speed answers for them.
I've tested the last 2 days with a mostly B/R base without Reckoners, only using white for Blood Baron, Helix, and Slayer's Stronghold + SB. All of the creatures are black and all have some type of evasion outside of Baron.
In search of that bursty "Oops, I win" type moment I love from Aurelia, the new finishers are 2x Wrecking Ogre and 2x Rakdos, Lord of Riots. Between Lifebane, Nighthawk and Chandra, I haven't had any issues getting Rakdos down on turn 4/5. Having Trample on one of my big creatures has really made the deck have a more threatening board presence.
The more I play with Lifebane, the more I like him. He demands answers or puts the opponent on a clock. Even when the 2nd/3rd ones whiff, they still get me a peek at their hand and are unblockable quite often. The deck overall has felt more proactive/aggressive with his addition, which I like. It often wins out of nowhere with Ogre. Even though it may not look like the best target, twice I've Ogre'd my Nighthawk to gain 10 life and put my Barons on steroids.
I'm certainly vulnerable to instant removal of my threats to negate Bloodrush, but really, how many instant answers are there to Rakdos, Desecration Demon, and Blood Baron? Lots of discard in my SB to look for Far//Away, my nemesis :D.
You can see I've categorized Ogre as an instant for the purposes of deck review. I've only casted him once as a creature when I had the other in my hand.
I feel a bit less vulnerable to Burning Earth running 5 basics and I've included 2 Oblivion Rings in the SB to deal with them if needed. Witchbane Orb has made it's way back into the SB to deal with some of the Edict effects out there.
edit: Adding Faithless Looting to dig for answers/Ogre, pitch lands after 5.
I don't know if it has been my playstyle or the opponents I've been playing, but I've been absolutely brutal to my opponents with the most surprising of my 5 drops, Obzedat. I changed my deck up to include Chandra, Pyromaster, and her +1 combined with Obzedat has caused more headaches for my opponents than hellkite, Aurelia, or Baron. Oh did I mention Hellkite, Baron and Aurelia is in the deck. Maybe me but having a loaded top end combined with Chandra and revamped removal set opening up attacks for my beaters really gives me confidence to take the build back to another open. I'd also like to put hand disruption in but aside of Rakdos' Return, I've been trying to decide whether Lifebane Zombie does enough to warrant mainboard inclusion as well. There are a lot of tusks and VoR in my meta, but my removal package albeit smaller than it was earlier in testing covers enough of the matchups that Lifebane or Sin Collector seems unnecessary. Not saying they aren't awesome though. Here's what I'm currently working with, assuming that Jund continues to remain dominant, would a shift towards lifebane mainboard be reliable?
I have come to peace with the 4 drop spot. There are a lot of hard choices that I had to make as well as some cards I'd like to increase in number. I had to cut a Pillar, a keyrune, a helix, a Chandra, and a Faithless main to fit the creatures in but I could put all of them back in if they don't work out. I'd like to fit everything with the right number in but further testing will decide whether or not the numbers are right. It may be too much running the 4 headed monster at the top end but each one has so much power that I couldn't think of completely cutting them all. If you guys could help with finding appropriate numbers for the spells and creatures, I'd try them out but I'd like to keep at least 1 of all the choices.
I am seeing a lot of Lifebane in the MB from you guys and it is interesting. I have not really tried him too terribly much out of the initial testing and I did not like the targets he was hitting, because AFB was hitting those targets and then some when it really seemed to matter. But I am sure there has to be a reason for him in the MB as much as he is.
Playing against Jund and Esper control for a bit today and I feel like I have fashioned something pretty sweet here.
Really, it is actually a complete 180 from what I intended on doing today. But the Esper list I was playing, I was a complete dog to. Liliana was pretty nice to have hit the board, but she never hit the cards I wanted her to be hitting. Sin Collector was swapped as a sub so I could actively be hitting removal spells to let creatures like Blood Baron actually stick. Sin Collector was not really ever god awful against aggro, but he was not great either. Good enough for me to always enjoy having him in the MB for decks like Jund, Junk Rites and control variants. Swapping Lili out for Sin Collector and making room for a 3rd to help with Midrange and Control seems quite worth it. Sin Collector can at least block against aggro and maybe grab something like Spear and a bit of information.
I want to be clearing out removal leading up to Blood Barons. From there, the removal can get rid of what is in the way.
I dropped Shock and did not want to go back to Pillar of Flame, simply because of Thragtusk. I also did not want to be upping my Doom Blade count in the MB only to run into Olivia, Rakdos Cackler etc. Searing Spear let's me select my target to remove with the ability to get Tusk out of the way. It also hits Olivia Voldaren, Reckoners, Hellriders etc in a pinch.
2 Olivia in the MB for Jund. If I am taking their removal, it makes Olivia that much better in a match she is already incredible in. I am waiting to see if I run into a situation where I can steal another Olivia and sack theirs... seems fun.
I want 3 Hellkites, but with the addition of Sin Collector, I set myself up with 2 Hellkites and Aurelia. We will see how it pans out in the long run.
Most notably, is 3 Blood Barons in the MB.
I felt like I had enough early removal and blockers to have time to see Blood Baron and have a decent amount of life. I really do not want to go below 4, but I am running 6 5+ drops and I really don't want to cut any other cards for the 4th Baron. I might try to find some room for it over the 3rd Mizzium Mortars, but I like the option for early removal. Maybe over the 3rd Faithless Looting? Looting + Rites can lead to some nasty plays all the same though, so this leaves me a bit hesitant.
The board is pretty standard for what I like to run. Appetite for Brains is really my Lifebane Zombie with more targets at a cheaper cost and that is where I like it. We shall see. I am going to snag a set of Lifebane Zombies when I find them and see how I feel about them after some bouts of testing.
I am seeing a lot of Lifebane in the MB from you guys and it is interesting. I have not really tried him too terribly much out of the initial testing and I did not like the targets he was hitting, because AFB was hitting those targets and then some when it really seemed to matter. But I am sure there has to be a reason for him in the MB as much as he is.
Playing against Jund and Esper control for a bit today and I feel like I have fashioned something pretty sweet here.
Really, it is actually a complete 180 from what I intended on doing today. But the Esper list I was playing, I was a complete dog to. Liliana was pretty nice to have hit the board, but she never hit the cards I wanted her to be hitting. Sin Collector was swapped as a sub so I could actively be hitting removal spells to let creatures like Blood Baron actually stick. Sin Collector was not really ever god awful against aggro, but he was not great either. Good enough for me to always enjoy having him in the MB for decks like Jund, Junk Rites and control variants. Swapping Lili out for Sin Collector and making room for a 3rd to help with Midrange and Control seems quite worth it. Sin Collector can at least block against aggro and maybe grab something like Spear and a bit of information.
I want to be clearing out removal leading up to Blood Barons. From there, the removal can get rid of what is in the way.
I dropped Shock and did not want to go back to Pillar of Flame, simply because of Thragtusk. I also did not want to be upping my Doom Blade count in the MB only to run into Olivia, Rakdos Cackler etc. Searing Spear let's me select my target to remove with the ability to get Tusk out of the way. It also hits Olivia Voldaren, Reckoners, Hellriders etc in a pinch.
2 Olivia in the MB for Jund. If I am taking their removal, it makes Olivia that much better in a match she is already incredible in. I am waiting to see if I run into a situation where I can steal another Olivia and sack theirs... seems fun.
I want 3 Hellkites, but with the addition of Sin Collector, I set myself up with 2 Hellkites and Aurelia. We will see how it pans out in the long run.
Most notably, is 3 Blood Barons in the MB.
I felt like I had enough early removal and blockers to have time to see Blood Baron and have a decent amount of life. I really do not want to go below 4, but I am running 6 5+ drops and I really don't want to cut any other cards for the 4th Baron. I might try to find some room for it over the 3rd Mizzium Mortars, but I like the option for early removal. Maybe over the 3rd Faithless Looting? Looting + Rites can lead to some nasty plays all the same though, so this leaves me a bit hesitant.
The board is pretty standard for what I like to run. Appetite for Brains is really my Lifebane Zombie with more targets at a cheaper cost and that is where I like it. We shall see. I am going to snag a set of Lifebane Zombies when I find them and see how I feel about them after some bouts of testing.
Your going to run into some huge problems with bant hexproof with that list. It's the main reason why i cant really take out the liliana's mainboard.
EDIT: unless you take out boros reckoner for nighthawk as a temporary board edict. (they cant attack with their hexproof guy unless it is suited up with with the whole package. Giving you time. They have a number of draws where they dont draw ethereal armor or invisible stalker so we should be favored then.
EDIT 2: this is all in relation to game 1 against bant hexproof. I realize your sideboard is suited up to go toe-to-toe with them.
Lifebane is at it's best when g or w are at their best. Which they currently are. G/w elves, b/w humans, various aristocrats, jund, esper, r/w/u, azorius are all popular decks. This makes lifebane a 2 for 1 and it still has a 3 power they have to deal with.
Nighthawk wont help much against bant hexproof if they drop pretty much a single ethereal armor on something since it gives first strike for a single w mana. The best way is to still remove creatures that you can and drop liliana, or play something like barter in blood.
Lifebane is at it's best when g or w are at their best. Which they currently are. G/w elves, b/w humans, various aristocrats, jund, esper, r/w/u, azorius are all popular decks. This makes lifebane a 2 for 1 and it still has a 3 power they have to deal with.
Nighthawk wont help much against bant hexproof if they drop pretty much a single ethereal armor on something since it gives first strike for a single w mana. The best way is to still remove creatures that you can and drop liliana, or play something like barter in blood.
The only thing I don't like about lifebane is that he only hits creatures which is still good but limits his effectiveness against slower midrange builds that run fewer creatures. I can see how he can be a house against jund, though. Bant hexproof albeit a weak matchup for us is a surprisingly underplayed deck in the meta for some reason. I see it enough to warrant hate against it but don't see it enough to maindeck slots to it. Usually the same edict effects that are good against hexproof also softens your removal package against Aristocrats and B/W humans so it is kind of a double edged sword. Which is why I'm testing Ratchet Bomb in the side. I really want to make Bonfire or Temblor work because all we really need is a early reliable sweeper to shore up both that matchup and the Aristocrats too.
What I failed to realize before playing with Lifebane was that I was putting too much emphasis on the Discard/hate portion of the card, and not enough on the fact that a 3-power, black, intimidate, look at opponents hand creature is still worth casting almost every time.
It changes the tempo of the deck. I moved from a defensive posture with nighthawk/reckoner "wait for blood baron/aurelia" strategy, to a more offensive "you must answer these or die in 3 turns" type game. It also changes some games to more of a race condition with both sides swinging turns 4/5, and Blood Baron coming down with Lifelink being more than the opponent can deal with.
The downside being I was unable to play both 4x Lifebane and Reckoner in the same list and have a consistent turn 3 play.
I really want to make Bonfire or Temblor work because all we really need is a early reliable sweeper to shore up both that matchup and the Aristocrats too.
Rolling Temblor would be in my deck if it hit Lingering Souls tokens, but alas it is not. Maybe if someone can leverage the Xathrid Necromancer type, non-flying human tokens a bit more, it may find it's way back into the SB.
What I failed to realize before playing with Lifebane was that I was putting too much emphasis on the Discard/hate portion of the card, and not enough on the fact that a 3-power, black, intimidate, look at opponents hand creature is still worth casting almost every time.
It changes the tempo of the deck. I moved from a defensive posture with nighthawk/reckoner "wait for blood baron/aurelia" strategy, to a more offensive "you must answer these or die in 3 turns" type game. It also changes some games to more of a race condition with both sides swinging turns 4/5, and Blood Baron coming down with Lifelink being more than the opponent can deal with.
The downside being I was unable to play both 4x Lifebane and Reckoner in the same list and have a consistent turn 3 play.
This is the identity of the deck in general. We play and pressure opponents with hard to remove/block must answer threats backed by hand disruption, removal and burn. The deck has little to no acceleration or draw power so playing a stall/grind type of game really doesn't benefit us because we can't replenish resources well enough to do that. The hard part is balancing the disruption with threats and removal. Since our preferred disruption isn't generalized you're basically gearing it towards whatever your meta is. If it we could take better advantage of it I'd just run 3 to 4 mainboard Rakdos's Return and call it a day, because it isn't limited in it's targets, and is applicable in all matchups. Lifebane is awesome because it seems almost tailor made to fight jund, but sin collector is also good if control/blue based midrange is stronger. Overall a shift to include these cards mainboard will probably be the direction to take considering that Scavenging Ooze and Burning Earth are running certain archetypes out of town. The more these cards weed out the meta the easier it will be for us to customize our removal.
Your going to run into some huge problems with bant hexproof with that list. It's the main reason why i cant really take out the liliana's mainboard.
In all honesty, I am feeling okay with not having a straight game plan against them game 1. Ratchet Bomb is great. On the play I can set it to 3 and on the draw 2 is just fine for the most part. It is a game 1 I am actually willing to set aside to strengthen up other matches that I feel are much more relevant.
unless you take out boros reckoner for nighthawk as a temporary board edict. (they cant attack with their hexproof guy unless it is suited up with with the whole package. Giving you time. They have a number of draws where they dont draw ethereal armor or invisible stalker so we should be favored then.
My problem with Nighthawk here is First Striking dudes. At least with Reckoner I can send damage back at them and race them with Thundermaw/Aurelia. Their game is actually a bit slower than it use to be.
Can restoration angel be good in the mainboard as a 2--of?
I really wanted to fit her in, but that was meaning I was taking out something like Warleader's Helix, Olivia Voldaren or Unburial Rites and I did not want to cut any of them for her. I will see what I can do next week about her.
Well I'm new to Dega. Coming from a long time Esper Control & superfriends player. Which I had alot of success with. Then came out DGM and M14. Dont think esper is there anymore. So decided to switch!
Black and Fallen like your lists. I have been playing with the following list:
Testing has been great so far. The only match I went 0-2 so far was against was UWR control (only creatures he was running were snap and aetherling, heavy in counters/burn and assemble).
I think my board definetly needs work for control. Although I couldnt seem to draw anything relevant game 2. No Sin Collectors, games, duress. Some input would be great. I only play on MODO these days so the field is pretty diverse.
Been loving Chandra in the deck, she's been solid. Been bouncing nighthawk and lifebane zombie MB back and forth. Think ill keep Lifebane Zombie in SB. He is pretty awesome though.
Grim Return has been great, not sure if I want to keep it. But reanimating a dead baron or ghost daddy isn't bad. Even stealing my opponents thragtusk after I kill it is pretty sweet too!
Considering swapping 2-3 pillar for 2-3 spears.
I like haunted plate mail, still testing with it. Equiping a blood baron is ridiculous. Also good with obzedat, exile and you have a blocker during opponents turn. Safe from wraths and you can equip keyrune's. 7/5 zombie with intimidate isn't bad either
I am seeing a lot of Lifebane in the MB from you guys and it is interesting. I have not really tried him too terribly much out of the initial testing and I did not like the targets he was hitting, because AFB was hitting those targets and then some when it really seemed to matter. But I am sure there has to be a reason for him in the MB as much as he is.
Playing against Jund and Esper control for a bit today and I feel like I have fashioned something pretty sweet here.
Really, it is actually a complete 180 from what I intended on doing today. But the Esper list I was playing, I was a complete dog to. Liliana was pretty nice to have hit the board, but she never hit the cards I wanted her to be hitting. Sin Collector was swapped as a sub so I could actively be hitting removal spells to let creatures like Blood Baron actually stick. Sin Collector was not really ever god awful against aggro, but he was not great either. Good enough for me to always enjoy having him in the MB for decks like Jund, Junk Rites and control variants. Swapping Lili out for Sin Collector and making room for a 3rd to help with Midrange and Control seems quite worth it. Sin Collector can at least block against aggro and maybe grab something like Spear and a bit of information.
I want to be clearing out removal leading up to Blood Barons. From there, the removal can get rid of what is in the way.
I dropped Shock and did not want to go back to Pillar of Flame, simply because of Thragtusk. I also did not want to be upping my Doom Blade count in the MB only to run into Olivia, Rakdos Cackler etc. Searing Spear let's me select my target to remove with the ability to get Tusk out of the way. It also hits Olivia Voldaren, Reckoners, Hellriders etc in a pinch.
2 Olivia in the MB for Jund. If I am taking their removal, it makes Olivia that much better in a match she is already incredible in. I am waiting to see if I run into a situation where I can steal another Olivia and sack theirs... seems fun.
I want 3 Hellkites, but with the addition of Sin Collector, I set myself up with 2 Hellkites and Aurelia. We will see how it pans out in the long run.
Most notably, is 3 Blood Barons in the MB.
I felt like I had enough early removal and blockers to have time to see Blood Baron and have a decent amount of life. I really do not want to go below 4, but I am running 6 5+ drops and I really don't want to cut any other cards for the 4th Baron. I might try to find some room for it over the 3rd Mizzium Mortars, but I like the option for early removal. Maybe over the 3rd Faithless Looting? Looting + Rites can lead to some nasty plays all the same though, so this leaves me a bit hesitant.
The board is pretty standard for what I like to run. Appetite for Brains is really my Lifebane Zombie with more targets at a cheaper cost and that is where I like it. We shall see. I am going to snag a set of Lifebane Zombies when I find them and see how I feel about them after some bouts of testing.
Lifebane zombies are fantastic because they're usually a 2 for 1, which is what this deck desperately needs more of. Not only that but he can be a huge tempo creature that swings past all of their dudes, while being able to trade with a LOT of creatures when he's on the defensive. I don't like sin collector in the MB because he's terrible against Hexproof and doesn't do much of anything against GR. Sin Collector us also much worse against Jund than the zombie. Lifebane Zombie just better than Sin Collector in more matchups in G1.
Jund: should be obvious, lol
Naya: same
GR: hits Rampager, Boar, and ooze. It's also unblockable in this matchup, and can trade with anything they throw at your face aside from a hard casted Rampager (which should be exiled from the zombie anyways).
Junk aristocrats: sin collector gets the edge here, but Zombie can still get Varolz.
UWR: same as aristocrats, with zombie instead hitting Restoration Angel (which is still a damn good thing to hit, as it eliminates a lot of 2 for 1s that angel can cause).
Naya/white weenie Blitz: Sin Collector is basically a 2/1 for 3 here.
Mirror: all of our threats are white, aside from Hellkite of course.
Look at the card. Now back to Jace. Now back to that card, now back to Jace! Sadly, it isn't Jace, but if it stopped being a junk rare and became relevant, it could act like it's Jace. Crack some Worldwake. What do you have? You have a Jace, the card you wish this card could be like. Look again. THE CARD IS NOW A $75 BILL. Anything possible when you play Magic with Jace and not junk rares. This is probably spam.
Can restoration angel be good in the mainboard as a 2--of?
I love the interactions between angel and our hate bears, but I don't want to stray to far from the beatdown aspect of the strategy to play flash the bear. I really only need the information/effect that Collector/lifebane provides only once to help me form a strategy about what to do. (I jot down the hand as it is revealed.) Lifebane also seems like he benefits more from angel than collector considering that our creatures are already hard to kill so with spells I'm only concerned with things that can kill or block baron. But don't forget about reckoner and in some lists that run keyrunes as well. I'd love opportunities to take angels and thrags out of hand, but with my combination of three drops and removal it isn't the end of the world if one sticks.
glad to see some people are coming around to the idea of making dega midrange a little differently. I have been on resto angel for a couple of weeks and its been nice. was running four of them and have been thinking its one too many. I will be looking at changing some of my creature numbers up.
My point of contention against Jund is hardly Thragtusk. It is crap like Bonefires over and over for incremental damage then Wolf Run getting through with whatever is on the board. Bonefire was definitely the MVP for Jund vs me for most of the week, that and being able to actually remove Reckoner. Sin Collector hits everything that deals with Boros Reckoner and Bonfire of the Damned to stop them from completely knocking my life total down and down with no interaction.
As for using Lifebane to just take Thragtusk or Huntmaster, Thundermaw can effectively race them. Outside of Bonfire of the Damned, they run 3 removal spells to actually interact with Thundermaw Hellkite without the assistance of Tragic Slip. Sin Collectore is far from dead in the Jund Match and I would rather be removing a means to deal with my threats than trying to stop them from getting Thragtusk on the board. Huntmaster is really not the complete pits for us to face down, he is just annoying more than anything.
As I said many times, Dega is all about creating value by lowering the value of the opponents cards and coming over the top.Sin Collector is great for allowing you to just come over the top with cards that just race them.
If you look back to the OP, Kevin Wallner took 2nd at States. His matches were Jund and UWR pretty much the whole day and losing to Jund in the finals in an incredibly close match. Sire of Insanity leveled their hands and left an empty board. What won the match? Thragtusk, and it was not because Thragtusk was impossible to deal with, it was because with an empty hand, Dega is incredibly susceptible to and creature.
Jund no longer packs Sire in the MB, but they are on Rakdo's Return and they pack 3 of them just for midrange matches. Sin Collector takes that out, and becomes an all encompassing means of protection, for you, your life and your creatures.
Is more than enough threat density to combat a Thragtusk strategy.
As for the other matches and targets you began to point out, Appetite for Brains has been a powerful midrange creature combatant since it's inception in Dega Midrange and it is still cheaper which gives you more options in a turn and it still a much more broad array of targets making it more universal. I don't see any reason to really make a switch when it has been working out of the board just fine for as long as it has been in the archetype.
I also want to add that Sin Collector helps you in many matches where you are a complete dog because they pack similar counts on removal.
Hey all, so some thoughts to share. Be ready for kalonian hydra decks coming your way in FNM and big time events. Looking at the WMC i'm seeing a lot of mana ramp mono-green decks that just play kalonian hydra as their only win-con and then just protect him with cards like ranger's guile. Shouldnt be too hard for our deck. Just be selective with your removal and all should be good!
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Hey all, so some thoughts to share. Be ready for kalonian hydra decks coming your way in FNM and big time events. Looking at the WMC i'm seeing a lot of mana ramp mono-green decks that just play kalonian hydra as their only win-con and then just protect him with cards like ranger's guile. Shouldnt be too hard for our deck. Just be selective with your removal and all should be good!
Overloaded Mortars, Liliana of the Veil, Appetite for Brains, Lifebane Zombie Ratchet Bomb... the list can go on really.
Not too terribly worried about it.
speaking of card intersection and choices, here are some numbers relating my option of Sin Collector over Lifebane Zombie.
Here is a breakdown of each of the decks that made it into the top 8 of SCG Somerset Invitational and the number of cards in my list that intersect with them. For strengths, we are looking at about 18+ intersection. Par is about 16-17 points of intersection, and sub-par is anything 15 and below.
There are a number of cards not factored in as you may have noticed and that is because there is not really any direct card intersection. Unburial Rites made it in against removal heavy midrange like Jund and BG. While it may not directly intersect with their removal, it still intersects by bringing back the removed target.
These are also numbers based on the main board. While Lifebane Zombie still factors in against decks like Jund and even BG Midrange and Naya Midrange, you can see that matches like the control match, already are weak in initial intersection and Lifebane does absolutely nothing to strengthen us on that front, where Sin Collector still intersects where Lifebane would in various situations and still offers a line of intersection against control decks.
These numbers may not mean anything to you, but they mean everything to me when it becomes a point of analytic card choices like Lifebane Zombie over Sin Collector etc.
Im playing this version this weekend.
I don't post often but I have been reading this thread daily for 3 months and I love the progression and debate on lists, card discussions and strategies.
Questions or Comments welcome.
Oh, who else has been watching some epic magic being played at Worlds 2013?!:nod:
"When I have a Thirst For Knowledge, I perform a Dark Ritual, Brainstorm, then my Diabolic Tutor tells me to Sign In Blood for the Cruel Ultimatum which you are about to receive." -Phil-
Rolling Temblor would be in my deck if it hit Lingering Souls tokens, but alas it is not. Maybe if someone can leverage the Xathrid Necromancer type, non-flying human tokens a bit more, it may find it's way back into the SB.
lingering souls should never be a problem with profit//loss, illness in the ranks, or curse of deaths hold
My point of contention against Jund is hardly Thragtusk. It is crap like Bonefires over and over for incremental damage then Wolf Run getting through with whatever is on the board. Bonefire was definitely the MVP for Jund vs me for most of the week, that and being able to actually remove Reckoner. Sin Collector hits everything that deals with Boros Reckoner and Bonfire of the Damned to stop them from completely knocking my life total down and down with no interaction.
As for using Lifebane to just take Thragtusk or Huntmaster, Thundermaw can effectively race them. Outside of Bonfire of the Damned, they run 3 removal spells to actually interact with Thundermaw Hellkite without the assistance of Tragic Slip. Sin Collectore is far from dead in the Jund Match and I would rather be removing a means to deal with my threats than trying to stop them from getting Thragtusk on the board. Huntmaster is really not the complete pits for us to face down, he is just annoying more than anything.
As I said many times, Dega is all about creating value by lowering the value of the opponents cards and coming over the top.Sin Collector is great for allowing you to just come over the top with cards that just race them.
If you look back to the OP, Kevin Wallner took 2nd at States. His matches were Jund and UWR pretty much the whole day and losing to Jund in the finals in an incredibly close match. Sire of Insanity leveled their hands and left an empty board. What won the match? Thragtusk, and it was not because Thragtusk was impossible to deal with, it was because with an empty hand, Dega is incredibly susceptible to and creature.
Jund no longer packs Sire in the MB, but they are on Rakdo's Return and they pack 3 of them just for midrange matches. Sin Collector takes that out, and becomes an all encompassing means of protection, for you, your life and your creatures.
Is more than enough threat density to combat a Thragtusk strategy.
As for the other matches and targets you began to point out, Appetite for Brains has been a powerful midrange creature combatant since it's inception in Dega Midrange and it is still cheaper which gives you more options in a turn and it still a much more broad array of targets making it more universal. I don't see any reason to really make a switch when it has been working out of the board just fine for as long as it has been in the archetype.
I also want to add that Sin Collector helps you in many matches where you are a complete dog because they pack similar counts on removal.
I pretty much always have duress and/or sin collector in the side for jund's bonfire. Sin collector works just like lifebane and can be a good 2 for 1. Duress hitting a farseek before they can cast it is huge. I cannot state that enough.
Wolf run is another matter and might warrant one of two land destruction non-basics we have access to. If artifacts actually become decent, we might be able to use demolish, but I doubt it.
I would never swap out any of the utility lands we have for a land destruction land. Ever. Wolf Run does not hurt us that bad outside of taking multiple Bonfires.
But as with my most recent post, Duress out of the board is not enough for me to feel I am attacking Jund where it needs to be hit hard, enough. MB Sin Collector helps with that as well as provides additional points of intersection in matches like UWR without taking any away from matches like Jund.
Overloaded Mortars, Liliana of the Veil, Appetite for Brains, Lifebane Zombie Ratchet Bomb... the list can go on really.
Not too terribly worried about it.
speaking of card intersection and choices, here are some numbers relating my option of Sin Collector over Lifebane Zombie.
Here is a breakdown of each of the decks that made it into the top 8 of SCG Somerset Invitational and the number of cards in my list that intersect with them. For strengths, we are looking at about 18+ intersection. Par is about 16-17 points of intersection, and sub-par is anything 15 and below.
There are a number of cards not factored in as you may have noticed and that is because there is not really any direct card intersection. Unburial Rites made it in against removal heavy midrange like Jund and BG. While it may not directly intersect with their removal, it still intersects by bringing back the removed target.
These are also numbers based on the main board. While Lifebane Zombie still factors in against decks like Jund and even BG Midrange and Naya Midrange, you can see that matches like the control match, already are weak in initial intersection and Lifebane does absolutely nothing to strengthen us on that front, where Sin Collector still intersects where Lifebane would in various situations and still offers a line of intersection against control decks.
These numbers may not mean anything to you, but they mean everything to me when it becomes a point of analytic card choices like Lifebane Zombie over Sin Collector etc.
How did you come up with this metric?
I would disagree with some of these conclusions about intersecting.
Junk Aristocrat. Both sin collector and doom blade are weak in this matchup. They normally run 4-8 spells and the majority of their creatures you want to kill are black or have undying.
Bant Hexproof. I can understand including helix but dreadbore and doomblade? Their creatures do have hexproof last i checked.
u/r/w Flash. Dreadbore is pretty bad in this matchup they only play a few creatures. I can understand having it for if they run walkers but your creatures and helix's should be able to contain those.
jund. rites is a decent card in this match up but i question its inclusion because you have so few creatures.
This idea behind lifebane zombie is that it gives you more of a threat than sin collector can against other midrange decks that have more raw power than dega does.
FYI ratchet bomb is a terrible way to deal with a kalonian hydra.
What metric? The points of intersection are where card interact with other cards in your opponents deck or strategy.
So while Blood Baron may dodge removal against Junk Reanimator, it does not actually interact with any specific card. Where something like Olivia Voldaren, interacts with creatures on board or Doom Blade interacts with creatures. These are example of points of intersection.
The numbers are based on cards that are playable in the match. So while Doom Blade against Hexproof may not hit all of their creatures, it still interacts with roughly 10 of 22 which is just under 50%
Junk Aristocrat. Both sin collector and doom blade are weak in this matchup. They normally run 4-8 spells and the majority of their creatures you want to kill are black or have undying.
When evaluating intersections, if does not matter if the card is weak or strong. If this was the case, I would consider things like Blood Baron of Vizkopa when crunching points of intersection. what matters is if it actually intersects with something. Evaluations of what is weak and strong is something you make when incorporating your SB. As you can tell, by these numbers I did not factor in points of intersection when it involves the SB.
Bant Hexproof. I can understand including helix but dreadbore and doomblade? Their creatures do have hexproof last i checked.
See my above statement. Those removal spells still impact almost 50% of their creature base.
u/r/w Flash. Dreadbore is pretty bad in this matchup they only play a few creatures. I can understand having it for if they run walkers but your creatures and helix's should be able to contain those.
Once again, it is a matter of looking at "Does this card interact with my opponent?" not "Is this card strong here, or is this card weaker here?"
The main reason why you do not look at these things when evaluating and calculating points of intersection is because interaction, regardless of whether it is strong or weak, is a good thing. Weak points of intersection are often just exchanged through SB options in games 2 and 3 and sometimes not at all.
jund. rites is a decent card in this match up but i question its inclusion because you have so few creatures.
Unburial Rites is indirect card intersection. It is a virtual answer to removal. Where in the case of Blood Baron, which could be considered indirect card intersection does not actually interact with the removal as that removal is still there for other things other than Blood Baron.
This idea behind lifebane zombie is that it gives you more of a threat than sin collector can against other midrange decks that have more raw power than dega does.
I understand. I can read the card and I can see what it does, and while the idea is fine and dandy, great in fact. My point of Sin Collector over Lifebane Zombies is overall match evaluation through points of intersection.
Let's look at points of intersection in relation to Lifebane Zombie vs Sin Collector and the SCG Invitational's 1st place Jund Midrange deck.
LBZ holds an intersection count of 11. It can hit 3 Oozes, 4 Thragtusks and 4 Huntmaster of the Fells.
SC holds an intersection count of 18. While that is a high number, I would personally only be looking at what is entirely relevant to actually hit, which brings me to an intersection count of 14 with a potential of 18 when it comes to actually blanking or not.
Overall, when we are not magnifying points of intersection, Dega vs Jund is going to generally hold the same intersection count regardless of if you are running LBZ or SC. SC just has more targets. This evaluation of whether Sin Collector or Lifebane Zombie is better, is really going to boil down to whether or not you would rather have a higher chance of threats sticking on your end or if you would rather have less threats sticking on their end.
Let's look at a weaker match up for Dega Midrange in UWR Flash.
LBZ holds an intersection count of 4. It can hit Restoration Angel.
SC holds an intersection count of 24, which we can break down into relevant spells further if we want. I personally would, which brings me to an intersection count of roughly 16.
So there are two ways to evaluate points of intersection, by match up (which is a brief overview) and then individual card intersection. As you pointed out, Sin Collector against Aristocrats is pretty limited with 8 points of intersection, where Lifebane Zombie holds a whopping 17.
So where does deck construction stem beyond this little theory?
By assessing how hard the match ups are when you have disparity between intersection points and cards competing for the same or similar spot in your list.
I personally hold Sin Collector higher than LBZ because the matches where there is a disparity in Sin Collectors favor, they are generally in harder match ups or have more targets.
FYI ratchet bomb is a terrible way to deal with a kalonian hydra
I would never swap out any of the utility lands we have for a land destruction land. Ever. Wolf Run does not hurt us that bad outside of taking multiple Bonfires.
But as with my most recent post, Duress out of the board is not enough for me to feel I am attacking Jund where it needs to be hit hard, enough. MB Sin Collector helps with that as well as provides additional points of intersection in matches like UWR without taking any away from matches like Jund.
That would be why my comment said "if" you were actually worried about wolf run. If is a big word.
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I've tested the last 2 days with a mostly B/R base without Reckoners, only using white for Blood Baron, Helix, and Slayer's Stronghold + SB. All of the creatures are black and all have some type of evasion outside of Baron.
In search of that bursty "Oops, I win" type moment I love from Aurelia, the new finishers are 2x Wrecking Ogre and 2x Rakdos, Lord of Riots. Between Lifebane, Nighthawk and Chandra, I haven't had any issues getting Rakdos down on turn 4/5. Having Trample on one of my big creatures has really made the deck have a more threatening board presence.
The more I play with Lifebane, the more I like him. He demands answers or puts the opponent on a clock. Even when the 2nd/3rd ones whiff, they still get me a peek at their hand and are unblockable quite often. The deck overall has felt more proactive/aggressive with his addition, which I like. It often wins out of nowhere with Ogre. Even though it may not look like the best target, twice I've Ogre'd my Nighthawk to gain 10 life and put my Barons on steroids.
I'm certainly vulnerable to instant removal of my threats to negate Bloodrush, but really, how many instant answers are there to Rakdos, Desecration Demon, and Blood Baron? Lots of discard in my SB to look for Far//Away, my nemesis :D.
4x Lifebane Zombie
4x Vampire Nighthawk
4x Desecration Demon
1x Rakdos, Lord of Riots
4x Blood Baron of Vizkopa
//Planeswalker (1)
1x Chandra, Pyromaster
//Instant (5)
1x Doom Blade
2x Warleader's Helix
2x Wrecking Ogre
//Sorcery (12)
4x Faithless Looting
3x Pillar of Flame
2x Dreadbore
3x Mizzium Mortars
4x Blood Crypt
2x Clifftop Retreat
4x Dragonskull Summit
4x Godless Shrine
1x Mountain
4x Sacred Foundry
2x Slayers' Stronghold
4x Swamp
1x Doom Blade
1x Rakdos's Return
2x Duress
2x Oblivion Ring
1x Pithing Needle
2x Witchbane Orb
2x Rest in Peace
3x Sin Collector
1x Curse of Death's Hold
You can see I've categorized Ogre as an instant for the purposes of deck review. I've only casted him once as a creature when I had the other in my hand.
I feel a bit less vulnerable to Burning Earth running 5 basics and I've included 2 Oblivion Rings in the SB to deal with them if needed. Witchbane Orb has made it's way back into the SB to deal with some of the Edict effects out there.
edit: Adding Faithless Looting to dig for answers/Ogre, pitch lands after 5.
3 Vampire Nighthawk
2 Olivia Volderen
4 Blood Baron of Vizkopa
2 Obzedat, Ghost Council
2 Thundermaw Hellkite
1 Aurelia, The Warleader
3 Pillar of Flame
2 Dreadbore
2 Doom Blade
2 Mizzium Mortars
2 Warleader's Helix
1 Rakdos Keyrune
2 Faithless Looting
1 Chandra, Pyromaster
1 Rakdos' Return
4 Sacred Foundary
4 Godless Shrine
4 Isolated Chapel
4 Clifftop Retreat
2 Cavern of Souls
1 Slayer's Stronghold
1 Vault of the Archangel
1 Mountain
1 Swamp
1 Assemble the Legion
1 Rakdos' Return
2 Barter in Blood
2 Liliana of the Veil
2 Rest in Peace
2 Slaughter Games
3 Duress
2 Lifebane Zombie
I have come to peace with the 4 drop spot. There are a lot of hard choices that I had to make as well as some cards I'd like to increase in number. I had to cut a Pillar, a keyrune, a helix, a Chandra, and a Faithless main to fit the creatures in but I could put all of them back in if they don't work out. I'd like to fit everything with the right number in but further testing will decide whether or not the numbers are right. It may be too much running the 4 headed monster at the top end but each one has so much power that I couldn't think of completely cutting them all. If you guys could help with finding appropriate numbers for the spells and creatures, I'd try them out but I'd like to keep at least 1 of all the choices.
Playing against Jund and Esper control for a bit today and I feel like I have fashioned something pretty sweet here.
4 Boros Reckoner
3 Sin Collector
3 Blood Baron of Vizkopa
2 Thundermaw Hellkite
Legendary Creatures (3)
1 Aurelia, the Warleader
2 Olivia Voldaren
Instant (7)
3 Warleader's Helix
2 Doom Blade
2 Searing Spear
Sorcery (13)
2 Dreadbore
4 Faithless Looting
3 Mizzium Mortars
2 Rakdos's Return
2 Unburial Rites
4 Blood Crypt
4 Dragonskull Summit
4 Godless Shrine
3 Isolated Chapel
4 Sacred Foundry
3 Clifftop Retreat
1 Cavern of Souls
2 Slayer's Stronghold
2 Ratchet Bomb
3 Appetite for Brains
2 Duress
1 Doom Blade
2 Rest in Peace
3 Slaughter Games
1 Warleader's Helix
1 Cavern of Souls
Really, it is actually a complete 180 from what I intended on doing today. But the Esper list I was playing, I was a complete dog to. Liliana was pretty nice to have hit the board, but she never hit the cards I wanted her to be hitting. Sin Collector was swapped as a sub so I could actively be hitting removal spells to let creatures like Blood Baron actually stick. Sin Collector was not really ever god awful against aggro, but he was not great either. Good enough for me to always enjoy having him in the MB for decks like Jund, Junk Rites and control variants. Swapping Lili out for Sin Collector and making room for a 3rd to help with Midrange and Control seems quite worth it. Sin Collector can at least block against aggro and maybe grab something like Spear and a bit of information.
I want to be clearing out removal leading up to Blood Barons. From there, the removal can get rid of what is in the way.
I dropped Shock and did not want to go back to Pillar of Flame, simply because of Thragtusk. I also did not want to be upping my Doom Blade count in the MB only to run into Olivia, Rakdos Cackler etc. Searing Spear let's me select my target to remove with the ability to get Tusk out of the way. It also hits Olivia Voldaren, Reckoners, Hellriders etc in a pinch.
2 Olivia in the MB for Jund. If I am taking their removal, it makes Olivia that much better in a match she is already incredible in. I am waiting to see if I run into a situation where I can steal another Olivia and sack theirs... seems fun.
I want 3 Hellkites, but with the addition of Sin Collector, I set myself up with 2 Hellkites and Aurelia. We will see how it pans out in the long run.
Most notably, is 3 Blood Barons in the MB.
I felt like I had enough early removal and blockers to have time to see Blood Baron and have a decent amount of life. I really do not want to go below 4, but I am running 6 5+ drops and I really don't want to cut any other cards for the 4th Baron. I might try to find some room for it over the 3rd Mizzium Mortars, but I like the option for early removal. Maybe over the 3rd Faithless Looting? Looting + Rites can lead to some nasty plays all the same though, so this leaves me a bit hesitant.
The board is pretty standard for what I like to run. Appetite for Brains is really my Lifebane Zombie with more targets at a cheaper cost and that is where I like it. We shall see. I am going to snag a set of Lifebane Zombies when I find them and see how I feel about them after some bouts of testing.
Your going to run into some huge problems with bant hexproof with that list. It's the main reason why i cant really take out the liliana's mainboard.
EDIT: unless you take out boros reckoner for nighthawk as a temporary board edict. (they cant attack with their hexproof guy unless it is suited up with with the whole package. Giving you time. They have a number of draws where they dont draw ethereal armor or invisible stalker so we should be favored then.
EDIT 2: this is all in relation to game 1 against bant hexproof. I realize your sideboard is suited up to go toe-to-toe with them.
:symw::symb::symr:Dega Midrange:symr::symb::symw:
:symu::symr::symb::symw:4 Color Control:symw::symb::symr::symu:
Lifebane is at it's best when g or w are at their best. Which they currently are. G/w elves, b/w humans, various aristocrats, jund, esper, r/w/u, azorius are all popular decks. This makes lifebane a 2 for 1 and it still has a 3 power they have to deal with.
Nighthawk wont help much against bant hexproof if they drop pretty much a single ethereal armor on something since it gives first strike for a single w mana. The best way is to still remove creatures that you can and drop liliana, or play something like barter in blood.
The only thing I don't like about lifebane is that he only hits creatures which is still good but limits his effectiveness against slower midrange builds that run fewer creatures. I can see how he can be a house against jund, though. Bant hexproof albeit a weak matchup for us is a surprisingly underplayed deck in the meta for some reason. I see it enough to warrant hate against it but don't see it enough to maindeck slots to it. Usually the same edict effects that are good against hexproof also softens your removal package against Aristocrats and B/W humans so it is kind of a double edged sword. Which is why I'm testing Ratchet Bomb in the side. I really want to make Bonfire or Temblor work because all we really need is a early reliable sweeper to shore up both that matchup and the Aristocrats too.
It changes the tempo of the deck. I moved from a defensive posture with nighthawk/reckoner "wait for blood baron/aurelia" strategy, to a more offensive "you must answer these or die in 3 turns" type game. It also changes some games to more of a race condition with both sides swinging turns 4/5, and Blood Baron coming down with Lifelink being more than the opponent can deal with.
The downside being I was unable to play both 4x Lifebane and Reckoner in the same list and have a consistent turn 3 play.
Rolling Temblor would be in my deck if it hit Lingering Souls tokens, but alas it is not. Maybe if someone can leverage the Xathrid Necromancer type, non-flying human tokens a bit more, it may find it's way back into the SB.
This is the identity of the deck in general. We play and pressure opponents with hard to remove/block must answer threats backed by hand disruption, removal and burn. The deck has little to no acceleration or draw power so playing a stall/grind type of game really doesn't benefit us because we can't replenish resources well enough to do that. The hard part is balancing the disruption with threats and removal. Since our preferred disruption isn't generalized you're basically gearing it towards whatever your meta is. If it we could take better advantage of it I'd just run 3 to 4 mainboard Rakdos's Return and call it a day, because it isn't limited in it's targets, and is applicable in all matchups. Lifebane is awesome because it seems almost tailor made to fight jund, but sin collector is also good if control/blue based midrange is stronger. Overall a shift to include these cards mainboard will probably be the direction to take considering that Scavenging Ooze and Burning Earth are running certain archetypes out of town. The more these cards weed out the meta the easier it will be for us to customize our removal.
In all honesty, I am feeling okay with not having a straight game plan against them game 1. Ratchet Bomb is great. On the play I can set it to 3 and on the draw 2 is just fine for the most part. It is a game 1 I am actually willing to set aside to strengthen up other matches that I feel are much more relevant.
My problem with Nighthawk here is First Striking dudes. At least with Reckoner I can send damage back at them and race them with Thundermaw/Aurelia. Their game is actually a bit slower than it use to be.
I really wanted to fit her in, but that was meaning I was taking out something like Warleader's Helix, Olivia Voldaren or Unburial Rites and I did not want to cut any of them for her. I will see what I can do next week about her.
Black and Fallen like your lists. I have been playing with the following list:
4 Dragonskull Summit
2 Cavern of Souls
4 Sacred Foundry
4 Isolated Chapel
1 Slayers' Stronghold
4 Blood Crypt
4 Godless Shrine
1 Chandra, Pyromaster
2 Rakdos Keyrune
1 Ratchet Bomb
1 Haunted Plate Mail
4 Blood Baron of Vizkopa
2 Lifebane Zombie
1 Olivia Voldaren
4 Boros Reckoner
2 Obzedat, Ghost Council
2 Mizzium Mortars
1 Faithless Looting
3 Warleader's Helix
3 Dreadbore
3 Pillar of Flame
1 Sign in Blood
2 Doom Blade
1 Curse of Death's Hold
2 Sin Collector
1 Devour Flesh
1 Grim Return
1 Rest in Peace
1 Duress
1 Lifebane Zombie
1 Rakdos's Return
1 Underworld Connections
1 Assemble the Legion
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Pithing Needle
2 Slaughter Games
Testing has been great so far. The only match I went 0-2 so far was against was UWR control (only creatures he was running were snap and aetherling, heavy in counters/burn and assemble).
I think my board definetly needs work for control. Although I couldnt seem to draw anything relevant game 2. No Sin Collectors, games, duress. Some input would be great. I only play on MODO these days so the field is pretty diverse.
Been loving Chandra in the deck, she's been solid. Been bouncing nighthawk and lifebane zombie MB back and forth. Think ill keep Lifebane Zombie in SB. He is pretty awesome though.
Grim Return has been great, not sure if I want to keep it. But reanimating a dead baron or ghost daddy isn't bad. Even stealing my opponents thragtusk after I kill it is pretty sweet too!
Considering swapping 2-3 pillar for 2-3 spears.
I like haunted plate mail, still testing with it. Equiping a blood baron is ridiculous. Also good with obzedat, exile and you have a blocker during opponents turn. Safe from wraths and you can equip keyrune's. 7/5 zombie with intimidate isn't bad either
Lifebane zombies are fantastic because they're usually a 2 for 1, which is what this deck desperately needs more of. Not only that but he can be a huge tempo creature that swings past all of their dudes, while being able to trade with a LOT of creatures when he's on the defensive. I don't like sin collector in the MB because he's terrible against Hexproof and doesn't do much of anything against GR. Sin Collector us also much worse against Jund than the zombie. Lifebane Zombie just better than Sin Collector in more matchups in G1.
Jund: should be obvious, lol
Naya: same
GR: hits Rampager, Boar, and ooze. It's also unblockable in this matchup, and can trade with anything they throw at your face aside from a hard casted Rampager (which should be exiled from the zombie anyways).
Junk aristocrats: sin collector gets the edge here, but Zombie can still get Varolz.
UWR: same as aristocrats, with zombie instead hitting Restoration Angel (which is still a damn good thing to hit, as it eliminates a lot of 2 for 1s that angel can cause).
Naya/white weenie Blitz: Sin Collector is basically a 2/1 for 3 here.
Mirror: all of our threats are white, aside from Hellkite of course.
URURxUR
UWUWxUW
I love the interactions between angel and our hate bears, but I don't want to stray to far from the beatdown aspect of the strategy to play flash the bear. I really only need the information/effect that Collector/lifebane provides only once to help me form a strategy about what to do. (I jot down the hand as it is revealed.) Lifebane also seems like he benefits more from angel than collector considering that our creatures are already hard to kill so with spells I'm only concerned with things that can kill or block baron. But don't forget about reckoner and in some lists that run keyrunes as well. I'd love opportunities to take angels and thrags out of hand, but with my combination of three drops and removal it isn't the end of the world if one sticks.
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As for using Lifebane to just take Thragtusk or Huntmaster, Thundermaw can effectively race them. Outside of Bonfire of the Damned, they run 3 removal spells to actually interact with Thundermaw Hellkite without the assistance of Tragic Slip. Sin Collectore is far from dead in the Jund Match and I would rather be removing a means to deal with my threats than trying to stop them from getting Thragtusk on the board. Huntmaster is really not the complete pits for us to face down, he is just annoying more than anything.
As I said many times, Dega is all about creating value by lowering the value of the opponents cards and coming over the top.Sin Collector is great for allowing you to just come over the top with cards that just race them.
If you look back to the OP, Kevin Wallner took 2nd at States. His matches were Jund and UWR pretty much the whole day and losing to Jund in the finals in an incredibly close match. Sire of Insanity leveled their hands and left an empty board. What won the match? Thragtusk, and it was not because Thragtusk was impossible to deal with, it was because with an empty hand, Dega is incredibly susceptible to and creature.
Jund no longer packs Sire in the MB, but they are on Rakdo's Return and they pack 3 of them just for midrange matches. Sin Collector takes that out, and becomes an all encompassing means of protection, for you, your life and your creatures.
4 Boros Reckoner
2 Olivia Voldaren
2 Thundermaw Hellkite
1 Aurelia, the Warleader
2 Unburial Rites
Is more than enough threat density to combat a Thragtusk strategy.
As for the other matches and targets you began to point out, Appetite for Brains has been a powerful midrange creature combatant since it's inception in Dega Midrange and it is still cheaper which gives you more options in a turn and it still a much more broad array of targets making it more universal. I don't see any reason to really make a switch when it has been working out of the board just fine for as long as it has been in the archetype.
I also want to add that Sin Collector helps you in many matches where you are a complete dog because they pack similar counts on removal.
:symw::symb::symr:Dega Midrange:symr::symb::symw:
:symu::symr::symb::symw:4 Color Control:symw::symb::symr::symu:
Overloaded Mortars, Liliana of the Veil, Appetite for Brains, Lifebane Zombie Ratchet Bomb... the list can go on really.
Not too terribly worried about it.
speaking of card intersection and choices, here are some numbers relating my option of Sin Collector over Lifebane Zombie.
Here is a breakdown of each of the decks that made it into the top 8 of SCG Somerset Invitational and the number of cards in my list that intersect with them. For strengths, we are looking at about 18+ intersection. Par is about 16-17 points of intersection, and sub-par is anything 15 and below.
2 Unburial Rites
2 Dreadbore
3 Sin Collector
3 Warleader's Helix
3 Mizzium Mortars
2 Searing Spear
2 Doom Blade
2 Olivia Voldaren
2 Dreadbore
3 Warleader's Helix
3 Mizzium Mortars
2 Searing Spear
2 Doom Blade
2 Olivia Voldaren
2 Dreadbore
3 Sin Collector
3 Warleader's Helix
3 Mizzium Mortars
2 Doom Blade
1 Cavern of Souls
2 Dreadbore
3 Sin Collector
3 Warleader's Helix
3 Mizzium Mortars
2 Searing Spear
2 Doom Blade
2 Olivia Voldaren
2 Dreadbore
3 Warleader's Helix
3 Mizzium Mortars
2 Searing Spear
2 Doom Blade
2 Dreadbore
3 Sin Collector
3 Warleader's Helix
3 Mizzium Mortars
2 Searing Spear
2 Doom Blade
2 Olivia Voldaren
2 Unburial Rites
2 Dreadbore
3 Sin Collector
3 Warleader's Helix
3 Mizzium Mortars
2 Searing Spear
2 Doom Blade
2 Olivia Voldaren
There are a number of cards not factored in as you may have noticed and that is because there is not really any direct card intersection. Unburial Rites made it in against removal heavy midrange like Jund and BG. While it may not directly intersect with their removal, it still intersects by bringing back the removed target.
These are also numbers based on the main board. While Lifebane Zombie still factors in against decks like Jund and even BG Midrange and Naya Midrange, you can see that matches like the control match, already are weak in initial intersection and Lifebane does absolutely nothing to strengthen us on that front, where Sin Collector still intersects where Lifebane would in various situations and still offers a line of intersection against control decks.
These numbers may not mean anything to you, but they mean everything to me when it becomes a point of analytic card choices like Lifebane Zombie over Sin Collector etc.
I don't post often but I have been reading this thread daily for 3 months and I love the progression and debate on lists, card discussions and strategies.
Questions or Comments welcome.
Oh, who else has been watching some epic magic being played at Worlds 2013?!:nod:
3 Boros Reckoner
3 Fiend Hunter
3 Blood Baron of Vizkopa
4 Thundermaw Hellkite
1 Aurelia, the Warleader
Spells-20
3 Faithless Looting
3 Doom Blade
2 Dreadbore
2 Mizzium Mortars
2 Rolling Temblor
1 Rakdos Keyrune
2 Chandra, Pyromaster
3 Warleader's Helix
1 Staff of Nin
1 Rakdos's Return
4 Sacred Foundry
4 Godless Shrine
4 Blood Crypt
3 Clifftop Retreat
4 Isolated Chapel
4 Dragonskull Summit
2 Rogue's Passage
1 Slayer's Stronghold
2 Appetite For Brains
1 Duress
3 Pillar Of Flame
2 Oblivion Ring
3 Sin Collector
2 Slaughter Games
1 Curse Of Death's Hold
1 Rakdos's Return
-=My Current Deck=-
RWBDega MidrangeRWB
lingering souls should never be a problem with profit//loss, illness in the ranks, or curse of deaths hold
I pretty much always have duress and/or sin collector in the side for jund's bonfire. Sin collector works just like lifebane and can be a good 2 for 1. Duress hitting a farseek before they can cast it is huge. I cannot state that enough.
Wolf run is another matter and might warrant one of two land destruction non-basics we have access to. If artifacts actually become decent, we might be able to use demolish, but I doubt it.
But as with my most recent post, Duress out of the board is not enough for me to feel I am attacking Jund where it needs to be hit hard, enough. MB Sin Collector helps with that as well as provides additional points of intersection in matches like UWR without taking any away from matches like Jund.
How did you come up with this metric?
I would disagree with some of these conclusions about intersecting.
Junk Aristocrat. Both sin collector and doom blade are weak in this matchup. They normally run 4-8 spells and the majority of their creatures you want to kill are black or have undying.
Bant Hexproof. I can understand including helix but dreadbore and doomblade? Their creatures do have hexproof last i checked.
u/r/w Flash. Dreadbore is pretty bad in this matchup they only play a few creatures. I can understand having it for if they run walkers but your creatures and helix's should be able to contain those.
jund. rites is a decent card in this match up but i question its inclusion because you have so few creatures.
This idea behind lifebane zombie is that it gives you more of a threat than sin collector can against other midrange decks that have more raw power than dega does.
FYI ratchet bomb is a terrible way to deal with a kalonian hydra.
What metric? The points of intersection are where card interact with other cards in your opponents deck or strategy.
So while Blood Baron may dodge removal against Junk Reanimator, it does not actually interact with any specific card. Where something like Olivia Voldaren, interacts with creatures on board or Doom Blade interacts with creatures. These are example of points of intersection.
The numbers are based on cards that are playable in the match. So while Doom Blade against Hexproof may not hit all of their creatures, it still interacts with roughly 10 of 22 which is just under 50%
When evaluating intersections, if does not matter if the card is weak or strong. If this was the case, I would consider things like Blood Baron of Vizkopa when crunching points of intersection. what matters is if it actually intersects with something. Evaluations of what is weak and strong is something you make when incorporating your SB. As you can tell, by these numbers I did not factor in points of intersection when it involves the SB.
See my above statement. Those removal spells still impact almost 50% of their creature base.
Once again, it is a matter of looking at "Does this card interact with my opponent?" not "Is this card strong here, or is this card weaker here?"
The main reason why you do not look at these things when evaluating and calculating points of intersection is because interaction, regardless of whether it is strong or weak, is a good thing. Weak points of intersection are often just exchanged through SB options in games 2 and 3 and sometimes not at all.
Unburial Rites is indirect card intersection. It is a virtual answer to removal. Where in the case of Blood Baron, which could be considered indirect card intersection does not actually interact with the removal as that removal is still there for other things other than Blood Baron.
I understand. I can read the card and I can see what it does, and while the idea is fine and dandy, great in fact. My point of Sin Collector over Lifebane Zombies is overall match evaluation through points of intersection.
Let's look at points of intersection in relation to Lifebane Zombie vs Sin Collector and the SCG Invitational's 1st place Jund Midrange deck.
LBZ holds an intersection count of 11. It can hit 3 Oozes, 4 Thragtusks and 4 Huntmaster of the Fells.
SC holds an intersection count of 18. While that is a high number, I would personally only be looking at what is entirely relevant to actually hit, which brings me to an intersection count of 14 with a potential of 18 when it comes to actually blanking or not.
Overall, when we are not magnifying points of intersection, Dega vs Jund is going to generally hold the same intersection count regardless of if you are running LBZ or SC. SC just has more targets. This evaluation of whether Sin Collector or Lifebane Zombie is better, is really going to boil down to whether or not you would rather have a higher chance of threats sticking on your end or if you would rather have less threats sticking on their end.
Let's look at a weaker match up for Dega Midrange in UWR Flash.
LBZ holds an intersection count of 4. It can hit Restoration Angel.
SC holds an intersection count of 24, which we can break down into relevant spells further if we want. I personally would, which brings me to an intersection count of roughly 16.
So there are two ways to evaluate points of intersection, by match up (which is a brief overview) and then individual card intersection. As you pointed out, Sin Collector against Aristocrats is pretty limited with 8 points of intersection, where Lifebane Zombie holds a whopping 17.
So where does deck construction stem beyond this little theory?
By assessing how hard the match ups are when you have disparity between intersection points and cards competing for the same or similar spot in your list.
I personally hold Sin Collector higher than LBZ because the matches where there is a disparity in Sin Collectors favor, they are generally in harder match ups or have more targets.
I never said it was a great way.
That would be why my comment said "if" you were actually worried about wolf run. If is a big word.