Sorry I took into account my ability to trade which left me needing basically fetch lands.
I don't ever buy a deck out-right, it's lazy and means you aren't a decent trader, or don't have the means to trade (in which case you should draft more often).
Either way, it doesn't take as much to get into Modern as many of you suggest because you are leaving out the variables of trading etc.
Besides, if someone wants to play Modern, they can always just use a Standard deck and update it with whatever Modern cards they have. I hate the assumption that you can't play a format unless you have the exact 75 of a tier 1/2 deck.
so your answer for someone who wants to get into modern is to play standard and limited more?
so your answer for someone who wants to get into modern is to play standard and limited more?
If they can't budget or trade their way in, then yes. What else would they do?
All I'm saying is that many of you are giving the misperception that if you can't buy your way into the format that there's no hope for you.
It's a game after all, and one of the funnest parts of playing for me was drafting my way into a decent collection.
You all act like if you can't afford a Tier 1/2 deck, you just throw your hands up like a baby and give up playing the game.
And @Jeffww, It's sad that you have to budget your money on an excel spreadsheet just to draft a few pods every week. Perhaps you should get a better job.
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Old enough to know better, much too young to care.
Sorry I took into account my ability to trade which left me needing basically fetch lands.
I don't ever buy a deck out-right, it's lazy and means you aren't a decent trader, or don't have the means to trade (in which case you should draft more often).
Either way, it doesn't take as much to get into Modern as many of you suggest because you are leaving out the variables of trading etc.
Besides, if someone wants to play Modern, they can always just use a Standard deck and update it with whatever Modern cards they have. I hate the assumption that you can't play a format unless you have the exact 75 of a tier 1/2 deck.
You want to factor in you're trading, so how about we factor in people's LGS that may not do store credit for winnings or may not even have singles beyond standard stuff. How about an area that doesn't even have a LGS within a 1/2 hour? How does that factor in?
How does out right buying a deck for Modern make you lazy? How about the people that proxied up a deck and did a bunch of playtesting, and go pick the deck up? I don't see how that is lazy. Also, some people's trade binders are a work in progress that does not have the value needed to make trades for a viable deck. It's not like most people that have a good trade binder for Modern is going to trade for the majority of Standard cards. Drafting may or may not work due to some points in my first paragraph.
There is a very good chance that someone getting into Modern is going to be a competitive player to some degree and don't want to show up with a pile of cards. I know I'm not the only one that prefers playing a well tested deck when trying out a new format. It allows you to focus on the commons interactions and the overall vibe of the format, and not worrying about if your mana base is correct and other things like that.
This post makes you look very pretentious. It adds no real value to the discussion at hand. It just comes off as I'm a better then you in all aspects of the game, and you know the best way of doing everything. In reality you can't think past your own experiences, and would rather brag then help the community you're apart of.
If they can't budget or trade their way in, then yes. What else would they do?
All I'm saying is that many of you are giving the misperception that if you can't buy your way into the format that there's no hope for you.
It's a game after all, and one of the funnest parts of playing for me was drafting my way into a decent collection.
You all act like if you can't afford a Tier 1/2 deck, you just throw your hands up like a baby and give up playing the game.
And @Jeffww, It's sad that you have to budget your money on an excel spreadsheet just to draft a few pods every week. Perhaps you should get a better job.
Stay classy with those ad hominem attacks against people that bring up valid points.
so your answer for someone who wants to get into modern is to play standard and limited more?
...pretty sure he's not saying play more Std and limited....but rather folks are making mountains of the fact that to play Modern you need to take out a 2nd mortgage to do so, which IMO is just fuel for WOTC sucks cause they are making MM too expensive...blah..blah..blah...that's fine if you want to have that attitude and opinion, but IMO (and I believe this is what george is saying) is there are competitive inexpensive decks to be had....so don't judge the book by the cover- look further:
Sorry I took into account my ability to trade which left me needing basically fetch lands.
I don't ever buy a deck out-right, it's lazy and means you aren't a decent trader, or don't have the means to trade (in which case you should draft more often).
Either way, it doesn't take as much to get into Modern as many of you suggest because you are leaving out the variables of trading etc.
Besides, if someone wants to play Modern, they can always just use a Standard deck and update it with whatever Modern cards they have. I hate the assumption that you can't play a format unless you have the exact 75 of a tier 1/2 deck.
I prefer to purchase the cards I need . . . should I consider myself "lazy" or not a "decent trader"???
so your answer for someone who wants to get into modern is to play standard and limited more?
You never know what someone will trade. Last week I did vintage fore vintage trade at my lgs. I was bsing with him, when someone else came in to meet the guy, trading vintage and wanting standard back.
And @Jeffww, It's sad that you have to budget your money on an excel spreadsheet just to draft a few pods every week. Perhaps you should get a better job.
Did you tell this man that he need to get a new job?
So a lot of people are complaining that Bob and Goyf are being moved to mythic (and presumably so will the other money cards be) so their prices will probably not change much... Did any of you actually read the article announcing Modern Masters? It was pretty explicitly stated that the goal was to increase the availability of modern staples without decreasing their prices... So... Yeah... If you were expecting prices to drop, sorry, but that was never the intent.
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perceptive would still be fundamentally
unprepared for the truth of House Dimir."
It was pretty explicitly stated that the goal was to increase the availability of modern staples without decreasing their prices... So... Yeah... If you were expecting prices to drop, sorry, but that was never the intent.
they're out there. It's not like we can't get them. We just can't afford them easily. The value is what needs to change to get more people into the format.
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Here are the little self-imposed guidelines I'm working with for the multiplayer decks I've been building:
• Must be cheap. Total price tag < $100, preferably < $50. Ideally ~$30. No one card greater than about ~$6
• Format: Modern (makes getting the cards somewhat easier for the play group, and almost all my cards are Modern-legal)
• Must be relatively interesting in 1:1 games. I don't need to win against Splinter Twin, but I should be able to play duels now and then
• Avoid instant-win combos; they only serve to make me target #1, and then the deck is worse than useless because I get killed first, every time
• Must have a funny name!
Generally speaking we expect that to mean cards like Planeswalkers, most legends, and epic-feeling creatures and spells. They will not just be a list of each set's most powerful tournament-level cards.
We've also decided that there are certain things we specifically do not want to be mythic rares. The largest category is utility cards, what I'll define as cards that fill a universal function. Some examples of this category would be cycles of dual lands and cards like Mutavault or Char. That also addresses a long-standing issue that some players have had with certain rares like dual lands.
Want to see other duel decks I made ? Check out my Blog ! Feel free to post advice or give topics for me to make duel decks out of. Check out the Theros Block Planeswalker Theme Duel Decks Elspeth, Xenagos, Ashok, Kiora, Ajani
What was thoughtseize price point when this set was announced? Thoughtseize, heirarch and cryptic command hopefully stay at rare level due to a lower price point before announcement. That and heirarch would be ridiculous as a rare.
I don't ever buy a deck out-right, it's lazy and means you aren't a decent trader, or don't have the means to trade (in which case you should draft more often).
I'd rather buy a deck out-right and get it than spend who knows many hours haggling with people who always want to trade their 1$ card for my Sphinx's Revelation. I don't mind trading down but people these days seem to take it to an extreme sometimes where if they don't see themselves as getting twice the value, then somehow the trade isn't worth it to them.
Yeah heres looking at every tournament playable rare being bumped to mythic :/ cause dark confident felt really mythic.
That's the philosophy for normal magic sets. MM is not a normal set. Its been stated multiple times that the whole purpose of MM is to ease card availability problems.
I can't believe that after tarmogoyf was previewed as mythic, people seriously expected dark confidant to be different
I heartily endorse this new printing. The art is terrible; even the set symbol is lame. I will happily hold on to my originals. I hope everyone enjoys Chronicles 2.0!
If 10 people want a playset of card X, and it takes about 100 boosters for 1 card X to be opened, Wizards sold 4000 boosters.
If card X was more common and in about 1 in 10 boosters, Wizards only sells 400 boosters.
Wizards' entire business plan hinges on limited availability.
The problem was that those cards were out of print and thus Wizards wasn't able to make any money from demand.
And now they can again.
If 10 people are instrested in a $100 and 100 people are interested in that card at $30. They are going to sell more product at $30.
Sorry I took into account my ability to trade which left me needing basically fetch lands.
Trading for a card doesn't mean it is free unless you are ripping of a little kid.
Trading money for cards and cards for cards are basically the same thing, you are giving up something worth X dollars to get the card. Nor were the cards you are trading away free to begin with.
Modern Masters has very different needs than a normal set when it comes to rarity. Don't use your normal set standards for MM.
The need of making modern more accessible is not met by having staples at mythic.
If people can't access the format because a card is selling for $100, saying this card is still $100 but now there are 10% more to buy isn't making the format more accessible.
A 40 dollar mythic rare would constitute a must have 4 of that goes in many decks.
Stats About Mythics
-Mythics are on average 40% rarer than pre-mythic rares
(old blocks about 200 rares, Mythic blocks 35+ mythics)
-They are printing more new cards a year not less
(about 665 now vs. 630 in most pre-mythic block)
-To drop the value of a rare by $1 a mythic must go up $2
-In a 3 year time span deck prices doubled. I am petitioning for the removal of mythic rarity. Sig this to join the cause.
How do you know there are only 10 people interested at 100? Maybe it's 50 instead? Or maybe only 70 people are interested at 30? This is all speculation on your part.
Either way, all modern cards are pretty much demand driven, because the supply of newer sets is virtually unlimited. So prices are pretty much what people are willing to pay. If they mass-print some highly priced staples, peoples spendings will just shift to other cards, therefore raising their prices. Also more people interested in the format == more demand == higher prices across the board.
In the end there is a fundamental conflict. People want to spend as little as possible on their cards (who doesn't?) whereas WotC wants you to spend as much as possible as long as possible. Higher secondary market values means more incentive for dealers to buy huge amounts of sealed products to get their supply of singles, which means more profits for WotC. Therefore it is in WotCs interest to print chase staples with the highest rarity as possible, as long as they believe they are not hurting their bottom line by doing so.
Even if you believe they might do so, sales trends seem to suggest otherwise, because none of the fiascos of the past (Commanders Arsenal, FTV) have put a damp on player growth.
We know it is a low number because you can still get them at that price now. If more people were interested at that price point, they wouldn't be available. At all. Increasing supply by a minimal amount, but keeping it all in the same hands is effectively the same as not increasing the supply at all. "We are going to reprint Force of Will, but you only get one if you already have them!" Bad strategy, and does nothing to increase supply. Most of the people with those cards aren't looking to get rid of them at all, and continue to gather and collect copies, decreasing real world supply.
So a lot of people are complaining that Bob and Goyf are being moved to mythic (and presumably so will the other money cards be) so their prices will probably not change much... Did any of you actually read the article announcing Modern Masters? It was pretty explicitly stated that the goal was to increase the availability of modern staples without decreasing their prices... So... Yeah... If you were expecting prices to drop, sorry, but that was never the intent.
This argument again? I don't know where people are getting the notion that increasing the availability of a card will somehow not affect its price. Furthermore, even if it was possible (which it's not), why would that be at all useful to anyone?
Can you explain to me how significantly increasing availability without decreasing prices is a)possible and b)desirable? Because it seems to me that if you were going to increase availability enough to actually make a difference, then prices would drop. Increasing supply lowers prices. This is like econ 101, so I find it extremely unlikely that WotC didn't take this into account when they stated their desire to make cards more available. And they said they didn't want to crash prices, they didn't say they didn't want to affect them at all.
As for b), if cards were more available but the same price, how would that be useful to anyone? If there were 20 playsets of Tarmogoyf on Channel Fireball instead of 5 (or however many there are now), but they're still $120, how does that help a player trying to get into the game? It's still just as expensive to buy them as it was before, and thus just as much of a barrier of entry to the format. In other words, if the prices don't change, "increased availability" doesn't mean jack.
Someone tried to make the argument earlier that increased availability without a price change was possible because people would be drafting the cards and acquiring their copies that way. First of all, if people were actually able to acquire playsets of Goyfs via draft, the price would definitely go down to reflect that. If people were able to get, say, two copies of it, but then had to buy the other two copies, that would mean that they didn't have to buy the full four copies, and prices would go down (though not as much) to reflect that, too. In other words, any significant increase in availability via limited would cause a price drop, and any increase in availability that didn't cause a price drop would not actually be a significant increase in availability. Availability and price are closely related, and if one is affected, the other will be, too.
This argument again? I don't know where people are getting the notion that increasing the availability of a card will somehow not affect its price. Furthermore, even if it was possible (which it's not), why would that be at all useful to anyone?
Can you explain to me how significantly increasing availability without decreasing prices is a)possible and b)desirable? Because it seems to me that if you were going to increase availability enough to actually make a difference, then prices would drop. Increasing supply lowers prices. This is like econ 101, so I find it extremely unlikely that WotC didn't take this into account when they stated their desire to make cards more available. And they said they didn't want to crash prices, they didn't say they didn't want to affect them at all.
As for b), if cards were more available but the same price, how would that be useful to anyone? If there were 20 playsets of Tarmogoyf on Channel Fireball instead of 5 (or however many there are now), but they're still $120, how does that help a player trying to get into the game? It's still just as expensive to buy them as it was before, and thus just as much of a barrier of entry to the format. In other words, if the prices don't change, "increased availability" doesn't mean jack.
Someone tried to make the argument earlier that increased availability without a price change was possible because people would be drafting the cards and acquiring their copies that way. First of all, if people were actually able to acquire playsets of Goyfs via draft, the price would definitely go down to reflect that. If people were able to get, say, two copies of it, but then had to buy the other two copies, that would mean that they didn't have to buy the full four copies, and prices would go down (though not as much) to reflect that, too. In other words, any significant increase in availability via limited would cause a price drop, and any increase in availability that didn't cause a price drop would not actually be a significant increase in availability. Availability and price are closely related, and if one is affected, the other will be, too.
Isn't it possible that the increased supply will not be able to keep up with increasing demand from players as Modern picks up steam?
That's what I think will happen: MM is quite clearly a homerun in terms of hype so it should (not necessarily though) follow that Modern, as a format, is going to get bigger.
We know that WotC isn't aiming for a Chronicles 2.0 debacle so they likely were very conservative on the print numbers; they very well might have undershot once again, like they did with Commander's Arsenal (although it doesn't seem as bad this time around).
The top 16 of GP portland had 4 Goyfs and 0 Dark Confidants.
Dark Confidant is used in one modern deck, one that was recently hit with bans, and while a T1 deck, not the 'best' deck in the format.
Goyf is used in a handful of lists, considerably more often than Bob at least.
Thoughtseize is both a utility spell and a modern staple.
Dark Confidant and Goyf are not staples. They are not barriers to entry into the format, because there are plenty of viable decks that run neither of them, and only one deck that runs both. (only sometimes)
Fetches and Shocks are modern staples.
Bob is played much much more in legacy than in modern.
And Scavenging Ooze might take up Goyf real estate in modern very very soon...
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If 10 people are instrested in a $100 and 100 people are interested in that card at $30. They are going to sell more product at $30.
...
The need of making modern more accessible is not met by having staples at mythic.
If people can't access the format because a card is selling for $100, saying this card is still $100 but now there are 10% more to buy isn't making the format more accessible.
Actually, Wizards will sell more packs the higher the price of the individual singles within. If you are instead arguing that retailers should lower their prices to cater to people who cant afford the luxury item that they are selling when people have proven that they will pay the amount that they have it listed for, well, that's not how the free market works. As far as increasing the supply not making accessibility greater, you are incorrect in that now these cards can be picked up through the booster pack lottery, drafting the set or trading for them from people who have them more often than now. I know a few people who have modern staples, but don't offer them for trade because noone local has anything of equivalent value that isn't slated to take the price dive that most standard legal cards take. Adding to the supply will absolutely help more people be able to get into the format.
This argument again? I don't know where people are getting the notion that increasing the availability of a card will somehow not affect its price. Furthermore, even if it was possible (which it's not), why would that be at all useful to anyone?
From previous real world examples. FTV and judge promos increase the supply of cards and never even budge the prices. It is assumed that there are about the same or slightly more of each mythic entering circulation as what you would get from an FTV printing. And it's still useful for the reasons I stated above.
Can you explain to me how significantly increasing availability without decreasing prices is a)possible and b)desirable? Because it seems to me that if you were going to increase availability enough to actually make a difference, then prices would drop. Increasing supply lowers prices. This is like econ 101, so I find it extremely unlikely that WotC didn't take this into account when they stated their desire to make cards more available. And they said they didn't want to crash prices, they didn't say they didn't want to affect them at all.
From WOTC's viewpoint, it should be quite desirable. You avoid ticking off collectors, some of whom who are already skittish about modern card prices due to the ban list growing so much, and you also sell your sealed product like hotcakes because of how good the lottery is. Stores love it because they can charge more than MSRP and people are willing to pay which helps them greatly. The margin on packs is rather low with the prices that most stores charge. When your LGS sells you a box (not MM) at $100 or $110, thank them, they are making very little to keep their customer base happy and avoid losing you to another store. Also, back to Wizards, they are expecting increased demand for the product which will take copies out of circulation which stabilizes the supply. Real life economics is far more complicated than have more charge less.
As for b), if cards were more available but the same price, how would that be useful to anyone? If there were 20 playsets of Tarmogoyf on Channel Fireball instead of 5 (or however many there are now), but they're still $120, how does that help a player trying to get into the game? It's still just as expensive to buy them as it was before, and thus just as much of a barrier of entry to the format. In other words, if the prices don't change, "increased availability" doesn't mean jack.
First of all, as others have pointed out, bob, thoughtseize, and goyf are not barriers to entry into the format. There are plenty of cheaper ways to get in, and they are about to become a whole lot cheaper when the market becomes saturated with what are currently money uncommons. On the other hand, the increased availability really will make itself felt at the local level even if it does nothing for the retail singles side of things. Also, more copies being available helps keep people from raising prices as the cards become more and more scarce. That is another aspect of the supply and demand economics you mentioned earlier. As time goes on, more of the supply is taken from the market, and if the expectation is that demand will only go up, then so will prices as the product becomes scarce. Look at cards like the abyss, that card's price is very much a function of it's availability.
The top 16 of GP portland had 4 Goyfs and 0 Dark Confidants.
Dark Confidant is used in one modern deck, one that was recently hit with bans, and while a T1 deck, not the 'best' deck in the format.
Goyf is used in a handful of lists, considerably more often than Bob at least.
Thoughtseize is both a utility spell and a modern staple.
Dark Confidant and Goyf are not staples. They are not barriers to entry into the format, because there are plenty of viable decks that run neither of them, and only one deck that runs both. (only sometimes)
Fetches and Shocks are modern staples.
Bob is played much much more in legacy than in modern.
And Scavenging Ooze might take up Goyf real estate in modern very very soon...
But, Bob, thoughtseize, clique and goyf are the best cards, they are after all the most expensive, so I can't win games or even get into the format to play without them. Dammit, Aaron Forsythe, you promised me a pony!
But, Bob, thoughtseize, clique and goyf are the best cards, they are after all the most expensive, so I can't win games or even get into the format to play without them. Dammit, Aaron Forsythe, you promised me a pony!
FWIW, Thoughtseize should be a rare in this set, anything else is dumb.
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What was thoughtseize price point when this set was announced? Thoughtseize, heirarch and cryptic command hopefully stay at rare level due to a lower price point before announcement. That and heirarch would be ridiculous as a rare.
A M/NM Thoughtseize was running $20-25 before it shot up, Vendilion Clique was in the $25-$30 range and I remember seeing Player Promo Cryptic Command going for $18 at GP Philly. Hell, I think blue fetches were $20 and under.
I understand there Modern PTQ season, but that doesn't account for the sky rocketing prices of some of these cards. Really wish I had picked up a play sets of everything at those prices.
FWIW, Thoughtseize should be a rare in this set, anything else is dumb.
It would be surprising if it went up to Mythic
It's very good but I find that one of the easiest ways to look at Mythics is "how good is this in limited?": certain cards, even if they look terrible, can be bombs in limited (Deathpact Angel is a good recent example)
Dark Confidant isn't oppressive but I do think he's close enough to warrant Mythic
Thoughtsieze though, I just don't see it: it isn't likely that it will outright win you the game or give you inevitability/card advantage the way Bob does (although the one toughness on Bob does make him easy to kill).
A M/NM Thoughtseize was running $20-25 before it shot up, Vendilion Clique was in the $25-$30 range and I remember seeing Player Promo Cryptic Command going for $18 at GP Philly. Hell, I think blue fetches were $20 and under.
I understand there Modern PTQ season, but that doesn't account for the sky rocketing prices of some of these cards. Really wish I had picked up a play sets of everything at those prices.
What accounts for the sky rocketing prices is WotC saying: "we want to make Modern a big deal"; that led to a lot of people stocking up on Modern staples in anticipation.
The top 16 of GP portland had 4 Goyfs and 0 Dark Confidants.
Dark Confidant is used in one modern deck, one that was recently hit with bans, and while a T1 deck, not the 'best' deck in the format.
Goyf is used in a handful of lists, considerably more often than Bob at least.
Thoughtseize is both a utility spell and a modern staple.
Dark Confidant and Goyf are not staples. They are not barriers to entry into the format, because there are plenty of viable decks that run neither of them, and only one deck that runs both. (only sometimes)
Fetches and Shocks are modern staples.
Bob is played much much more in legacy than in modern.
And Scavenging Ooze might take up Goyf real estate in modern very very soon...
You beat me to it. There are plenty of viable decks in Modern that don't need the super expensive cards. When people say that the price of Goyf and Bob is a barrier to playing Modern they are just being overly dramatic.
If price was an indicator of power, every winning modern deck would be a BUG deck running four copies of Goyf, Bob, Clique, and Thoughtseize.
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so your answer for someone who wants to get into modern is to play standard and limited more?
…( `\(o),,_/` ¯ : o : : : o `-, …. Beyond the hard times from now
have/want: http://www.mtgsalvation.com/trading-post/details/80-quattros-trade-thread
If they can't budget or trade their way in, then yes. What else would they do?
All I'm saying is that many of you are giving the misperception that if you can't buy your way into the format that there's no hope for you.
It's a game after all, and one of the funnest parts of playing for me was drafting my way into a decent collection.
You all act like if you can't afford a Tier 1/2 deck, you just throw your hands up like a baby and give up playing the game.
And @Jeffww, It's sad that you have to budget your money on an excel spreadsheet just to draft a few pods every week. Perhaps you should get a better job.
You want to factor in you're trading, so how about we factor in people's LGS that may not do store credit for winnings or may not even have singles beyond standard stuff. How about an area that doesn't even have a LGS within a 1/2 hour? How does that factor in?
How does out right buying a deck for Modern make you lazy? How about the people that proxied up a deck and did a bunch of playtesting, and go pick the deck up? I don't see how that is lazy. Also, some people's trade binders are a work in progress that does not have the value needed to make trades for a viable deck. It's not like most people that have a good trade binder for Modern is going to trade for the majority of Standard cards. Drafting may or may not work due to some points in my first paragraph.
There is a very good chance that someone getting into Modern is going to be a competitive player to some degree and don't want to show up with a pile of cards. I know I'm not the only one that prefers playing a well tested deck when trying out a new format. It allows you to focus on the commons interactions and the overall vibe of the format, and not worrying about if your mana base is correct and other things like that.
This post makes you look very pretentious. It adds no real value to the discussion at hand. It just comes off as I'm a better then you in all aspects of the game, and you know the best way of doing everything. In reality you can't think past your own experiences, and would rather brag then help the community you're apart of.
Stay classy with those ad hominem attacks against people that bring up valid points.
Standard
W.I.P.
EDH
WNorn Tokens
...pretty sure he's not saying play more Std and limited....but rather folks are making mountains of the fact that to play Modern you need to take out a 2nd mortgage to do so, which IMO is just fuel for WOTC sucks cause they are making MM too expensive...blah..blah..blah...that's fine if you want to have that attitude and opinion, but IMO (and I believe this is what george is saying) is there are competitive inexpensive decks to be had....so don't judge the book by the cover- look further:
http://www.decklists.net/index.php?option=com_ohmydeckdb&controller=deck&view=deck&deckId=18526
http://www.decklists.net/index.php?option=com_ohmydeckdb&controller=deck&view=deck&deckId=15442
http://www.decklists.net/index.php?option=com_ohmydeckdb&controller=deck&view=deck&deckId=17700
http://www.decklists.net/index.php?option=com_ohmydeckdb&controller=deck&view=deck&deckId=17320
http://www.decklists.net/index.php?option=com_ohmydeckdb&controller=deck&view=deck&deckId=17979
I prefer to purchase the cards I need . . . should I consider myself "lazy" or not a "decent trader"???
You never know what someone will trade. Last week I did vintage fore vintage trade at my lgs. I was bsing with him, when someone else came in to meet the guy, trading vintage and wanting standard back.
Did you tell this man that he need to get a new job?
...low blow man, low blow.
PucaTrade Invite. Sign up and enjoy the first 500 points ($5) free!
"I am confident that if anyone actually
penetrates our facades, even the most
perceptive would still be fundamentally
unprepared for the truth of House Dimir."
total bs.
http://www.ebay.com/sch/Individual-Cards-/38292/i.html?_from=R40&_nkw=dark+confidant
they're out there. It's not like we can't get them. We just can't afford them easily. The value is what needs to change to get more people into the format.
• Must be cheap. Total price tag < $100, preferably < $50. Ideally ~$30. No one card greater than about ~$6
• Format: Modern (makes getting the cards somewhat easier for the play group, and almost all my cards are Modern-legal)
• Must be relatively interesting in 1:1 games. I don't need to win against Splinter Twin, but I should be able to play duels now and then
• Avoid instant-win combos; they only serve to make me target #1, and then the deck is worse than useless because I get killed first, every time
• Must have a funny name!
I like to bring this up again
Yeah heres looking at every tournament playable rare being bumped to mythic :/ cause dark confident felt really mythic.
Decks used- GGarruk vs LilianaB, WElsepth vs TezzeretU, WGKnights vs DragonsR
WGRAjani vs BolasRUB, WUVenser vs KothR, RUIzzet vs GolgariGB.
WBSorin vs TibaltBR, WRHeros vs Monsters RG
Want to see other duel decks I made ? Check out my Blog ! Feel free to post advice or give topics for me to make duel decks out of. Check out the Theros Block Planeswalker Theme Duel Decks Elspeth, Xenagos, Ashok, Kiora, Ajani
I'd rather buy a deck out-right and get it than spend who knows many hours haggling with people who always want to trade their 1$ card for my Sphinx's Revelation. I don't mind trading down but people these days seem to take it to an extreme sometimes where if they don't see themselves as getting twice the value, then somehow the trade isn't worth it to them.
That's the philosophy for normal magic sets. MM is not a normal set. Its been stated multiple times that the whole purpose of MM is to ease card availability problems.
I can't believe that after tarmogoyf was previewed as mythic, people seriously expected dark confidant to be different
Now with black border.
If 10 people are instrested in a $100 and 100 people are interested in that card at $30. They are going to sell more product at $30.
Trading for a card doesn't mean it is free unless you are ripping of a little kid.
Trading money for cards and cards for cards are basically the same thing, you are giving up something worth X dollars to get the card. Nor were the cards you are trading away free to begin with.
The need of making modern more accessible is not met by having staples at mythic.
If people can't access the format because a card is selling for $100, saying this card is still $100 but now there are 10% more to buy isn't making the format more accessible.
Stats About Mythics
-Mythics are on average 40% rarer than pre-mythic rares
(old blocks about 200 rares, Mythic blocks 35+ mythics)
-They are printing more new cards a year not less
(about 665 now vs. 630 in most pre-mythic block)
-To drop the value of a rare by $1 a mythic must go up $2
-In a 3 year time span deck prices doubled.
I am petitioning for the removal of mythic rarity. Sig this to join the cause.
We know it is a low number because you can still get them at that price now. If more people were interested at that price point, they wouldn't be available. At all. Increasing supply by a minimal amount, but keeping it all in the same hands is effectively the same as not increasing the supply at all. "We are going to reprint Force of Will, but you only get one if you already have them!" Bad strategy, and does nothing to increase supply. Most of the people with those cards aren't looking to get rid of them at all, and continue to gather and collect copies, decreasing real world supply.
EDH is a CASUAL format. Get with the program, or GTFO.
Can you explain to me how significantly increasing availability without decreasing prices is a)possible and b)desirable? Because it seems to me that if you were going to increase availability enough to actually make a difference, then prices would drop. Increasing supply lowers prices. This is like econ 101, so I find it extremely unlikely that WotC didn't take this into account when they stated their desire to make cards more available. And they said they didn't want to crash prices, they didn't say they didn't want to affect them at all.
As for b), if cards were more available but the same price, how would that be useful to anyone? If there were 20 playsets of Tarmogoyf on Channel Fireball instead of 5 (or however many there are now), but they're still $120, how does that help a player trying to get into the game? It's still just as expensive to buy them as it was before, and thus just as much of a barrier of entry to the format. In other words, if the prices don't change, "increased availability" doesn't mean jack.
Someone tried to make the argument earlier that increased availability without a price change was possible because people would be drafting the cards and acquiring their copies that way. First of all, if people were actually able to acquire playsets of Goyfs via draft, the price would definitely go down to reflect that. If people were able to get, say, two copies of it, but then had to buy the other two copies, that would mean that they didn't have to buy the full four copies, and prices would go down (though not as much) to reflect that, too. In other words, any significant increase in availability via limited would cause a price drop, and any increase in availability that didn't cause a price drop would not actually be a significant increase in availability. Availability and price are closely related, and if one is affected, the other will be, too.
Isn't it possible that the increased supply will not be able to keep up with increasing demand from players as Modern picks up steam?
That's what I think will happen: MM is quite clearly a homerun in terms of hype so it should (not necessarily though) follow that Modern, as a format, is going to get bigger.
We know that WotC isn't aiming for a Chronicles 2.0 debacle so they likely were very conservative on the print numbers; they very well might have undershot once again, like they did with Commander's Arsenal (although it doesn't seem as bad this time around).
Dark Confidant is used in one modern deck, one that was recently hit with bans, and while a T1 deck, not the 'best' deck in the format.
Goyf is used in a handful of lists, considerably more often than Bob at least.
Thoughtseize is both a utility spell and a modern staple.
Dark Confidant and Goyf are not staples. They are not barriers to entry into the format, because there are plenty of viable decks that run neither of them, and only one deck that runs both. (only sometimes)
Fetches and Shocks are modern staples.
Bob is played much much more in legacy than in modern.
And Scavenging Ooze might take up Goyf real estate in modern very very soon...
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Actually, Wizards will sell more packs the higher the price of the individual singles within. If you are instead arguing that retailers should lower their prices to cater to people who cant afford the luxury item that they are selling when people have proven that they will pay the amount that they have it listed for, well, that's not how the free market works. As far as increasing the supply not making accessibility greater, you are incorrect in that now these cards can be picked up through the booster pack lottery, drafting the set or trading for them from people who have them more often than now. I know a few people who have modern staples, but don't offer them for trade because noone local has anything of equivalent value that isn't slated to take the price dive that most standard legal cards take. Adding to the supply will absolutely help more people be able to get into the format.
From previous real world examples. FTV and judge promos increase the supply of cards and never even budge the prices. It is assumed that there are about the same or slightly more of each mythic entering circulation as what you would get from an FTV printing. And it's still useful for the reasons I stated above.
From WOTC's viewpoint, it should be quite desirable. You avoid ticking off collectors, some of whom who are already skittish about modern card prices due to the ban list growing so much, and you also sell your sealed product like hotcakes because of how good the lottery is. Stores love it because they can charge more than MSRP and people are willing to pay which helps them greatly. The margin on packs is rather low with the prices that most stores charge. When your LGS sells you a box (not MM) at $100 or $110, thank them, they are making very little to keep their customer base happy and avoid losing you to another store. Also, back to Wizards, they are expecting increased demand for the product which will take copies out of circulation which stabilizes the supply. Real life economics is far more complicated than have more charge less.
First of all, as others have pointed out, bob, thoughtseize, and goyf are not barriers to entry into the format. There are plenty of cheaper ways to get in, and they are about to become a whole lot cheaper when the market becomes saturated with what are currently money uncommons. On the other hand, the increased availability really will make itself felt at the local level even if it does nothing for the retail singles side of things. Also, more copies being available helps keep people from raising prices as the cards become more and more scarce. That is another aspect of the supply and demand economics you mentioned earlier. As time goes on, more of the supply is taken from the market, and if the expectation is that demand will only go up, then so will prices as the product becomes scarce. Look at cards like the abyss, that card's price is very much a function of it's availability.
But, Bob, thoughtseize, clique and goyf are the best cards, they are after all the most expensive, so I can't win games or even get into the format to play without them. Dammit, Aaron Forsythe, you promised me a pony!
FWIW, Thoughtseize should be a rare in this set, anything else is dumb.
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So we've never seen anything dumb from WotC? Seriously though, I agree with you.
A M/NM Thoughtseize was running $20-25 before it shot up, Vendilion Clique was in the $25-$30 range and I remember seeing Player Promo Cryptic Command going for $18 at GP Philly. Hell, I think blue fetches were $20 and under.
I understand there Modern PTQ season, but that doesn't account for the sky rocketing prices of some of these cards. Really wish I had picked up a play sets of everything at those prices.
Standard
W.I.P.
EDH
WNorn Tokens
It would be surprising if it went up to Mythic
It's very good but I find that one of the easiest ways to look at Mythics is "how good is this in limited?": certain cards, even if they look terrible, can be bombs in limited (Deathpact Angel is a good recent example)
Dark Confidant isn't oppressive but I do think he's close enough to warrant Mythic
Thoughtsieze though, I just don't see it: it isn't likely that it will outright win you the game or give you inevitability/card advantage the way Bob does (although the one toughness on Bob does make him easy to kill).
What accounts for the sky rocketing prices is WotC saying: "we want to make Modern a big deal"; that led to a lot of people stocking up on Modern staples in anticipation.
You beat me to it. There are plenty of viable decks in Modern that don't need the super expensive cards. When people say that the price of Goyf and Bob is a barrier to playing Modern they are just being overly dramatic.
If price was an indicator of power, every winning modern deck would be a BUG deck running four copies of Goyf, Bob, Clique, and Thoughtseize.