I brought this up in another thread (there are way too many of these floating around) but the only thing I'm really concerned about with the new rule is what it will do to the most powerful and expensive legendary and planeswalker cards that COULD end up being banned because they have just become too powerful.
Off the top of my head, these cards concern me a lot.
Jace, being the most expensive, really scares me. Many players have sunk close to $500 into a playset. If he's banned (and it is quite possible now) it is going to leave a bad taste in a lot of player's mouths. It's bad enough that WotC obviously doesn't really care about Legacy, but this rule change could turn the format upside down.
I don't think Standard will be affected too much by it and Modern only a little. But Legacy has the most powerful cards in the game outside of Vintage and I am truly concerned at what this rule change is going to do to it.
And before anybody says I'm overreacting, when Mental Misstep came out, the first thing I thought to myself, after I decided that it wouldn't do too much to Standard, was "OMG...All those 1 drops in Legacy. This is going to turn into MM wars." And I was right. MM was the worst thing to happen to Legacy in years, even though many thought I was crazy.
Well, mark my words, this Legend and Planeswalker change is going to be the worst thing to happen to the banned list since MM almost destroyed Legacy.
If this rules change leads to SnT getting banned, it'll be a success in my mind. That deck requires literally no skill at all to play. And ever since Griselbrand was printed, it's just been a mess. If you wanna play combo, play a skill intensive deck like Dredge or TES.
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Current Modern decks BGW Junk / URB Grixis Shadow / RGB Lantern Control / WUBCBant Eldrazi
Current Legacy decks BUG Shardless BUG / UWR Predict Miracles / RUG Canadian Thresh / WRBG 4c Loam UB Reanimator
While it may be that you're right, I'd like to see how it plays out before pronouncing any judgments. It's possible that it will work out just fine, adding a level of complexity to the planeswalker element of the game. Racing for the ultimate will make more sense than it did before, and packing the cards that can defend against walkers will matter more than before.
Now we can all share my pain at dealing with JTMS, instead of the Jace players themselves living free from fear.
We might see those walkers that can destroy other walkers rise in value. Particularly Sorin's ultimate. The stolen Walkers now cannot be done away with via the other walkers in the same deck!
Ahhhh, so much moaning How about we actually play with the new rule changes before we jump to conclusions eh guys? At least, no one has claimed that they had yet, right?
I, for one, will be trying 2 Detention Spheres in my Stoneblade maindeck to combat rival Jittes and Jaces as well as Lilianas. They're good against other things as well. Anyone else want to actually play some Magic?
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a program of a slightly different strain.
Tonight my listeners, a new power will rise,
unleashed upon you all in this musical disguise.
Your cities turn to ash, for the broadcast is cursed.
The signal is peaking and can't be reversed.
If you choose my children, you can try to hide.
But I strongly suggest you run for your life."
-The Sermon 2, The Creepshow
I don't know how this affects SnT decks. I've seen some good arguments that it changes little. In the case of Karakas, it could make the deck worse. If I'm not mistaken, SnT ran Karakas primarily to destroy opposing Karakas?
As for Planeswalkers, I'm not terribly sure it breaks them. If you have one on the battlefield and you play a second, it's almost like you're just casting an expensive charm. For example, a Liliana on the board turns all the ones in your hand into a 1BB sorcery that says: "Choose one - Target player sacrifices a creature; or each player discards a card." Sure, it gives a little more benefit than that and adds some value to her. But it just doesn't seem game-breaking.
I don't know how this affects SnT decks. I've seen some good arguments that it changes little. In the case of Karakas, it could make the deck worse. If I'm not mistaken, SnT ran Karakas primarily to destroy opposing Karakas?
As for Planeswalkers, I'm not terribly sure it breaks them. If you have one on the battlefield and you play a second, it's almost like you're just casting an expensive charm. For example, a Liliana on the board turns all the ones in your hand into a 1BB sorcery that says: "Choose one - Target player sacrifices a creature; or each player discards a card." Sure, it gives a little more benefit than that and adds some value to her. But it just doesn't seem game-breaking.
Gaea's Cradle is a legitimate concern.
$150 now.
Lemme play Republican for a moment and say, "Print, baby, print" to WotC.
Elves seems pretty good. Gaea's Cradle multiple times in a turn?
Player 1 casts Show and Tell. Both players put Emrakul. Guess who wins this game?
I don't own a show and tell deck, and honestly I dismantled my RUG delver about 6 months ago and sold it off for rent so I don't have a whole lot of stake in Legacy right now, but man I am kind of glad I am not vested. It seems like a lot of craziness will result from this. I think playing a show and tell deck is a liability now and the only way to go off is by using omniscience now in order to ensure that you are able to cast it and therefor swinging first. if you just turn 2 show I think you're taking a pretty big gamble.
Ahhhh, so much moaning How about we actually play with the new rule changes before we jump to conclusions eh guys? At least, no one has claimed that they had yet, right?
I, for one, will be trying 2 Detention Spheres in my Stoneblade maindeck to combat rival Jittes and Jaces as well as Lilianas. They're good against other things as well. Anyone else want to actually play some Magic?
I shall repeat what I said in the main thread for discussing this subject:
The problem with this is both a flavor one and mechanical one: from a flavor/storyline perspective, legendary creatures and planeswalkers represent unique and individual beings, so there cannot be two of the same person in existence at the same time; from a mechanical perspective, the "legend rule" was a way to balance the power of legendary creatures, since they are typically far more powerful for their converted mana cost than are non-legendary creatures of the same cost. I believe that the post-Kamigawa revision of this rule was perfect as it was, so why fix something that was not broken?
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“Patriotism means to stand by one's country; it does not mean to stand by one's president.”-Theodore Roosevelt
I shall repeat what I said in the main thread for discussing this subject:
The problem with this is both a flavor one and mechanical one: from a flavor/storyline perspective, legendary creatures and planeswalkers represent unique and individual beings, so there cannot be two of the same person in existence at the same time; from a mechanical perspective, the "legend rule" was a way to balance the power of legendary creatures, since they are typically far more powerful for their converted mana cost than are non-legendary creatures of the same cost. I believe that the post-Kamigawa revision of this rule was perfect as it was, so why fix something that was not broken?
I agree. I am starting to fear that this change is going to be a nightmare for Legacy. I may be wrong. I hope I'm wrong. But I have a very bad feeling about this.
I agree. I am starting to fear that this change is going to be a nightmare for Legacy. I may be wrong. I hope I'm wrong. But I have a very bad feeling about this.
I very much agree. Maro on his blog keeps saying that they've done a lot of testing, but I doubt any of that has been with eternal formats.
This is a significantly bigger change than damage on the stack or mana burn. I don't know if it will ruin legacy, but it will certainly completely warp and change the format. This is a pretty significant rules change.
I very much agree. Maro on his blog keeps saying that they've done a lot of testing, but I doubt any of that has been with eternal formats.
This is a significantly bigger change than damage on the stack or mana burn. I don't know if it will ruin legacy, but it will certainly completely warp and change the format. This is a pretty significant rules change.
The price has already skyrocketed up to $150 because the dealers realize this card is now busted beyond belief.
So players spend $600 or more on a play set, play it, the card gets banned when WotC realizes it screwed up big time and NOW with the card not legal at all, it won't even be worth what it was prior to the banning. Cradle may actually drop to under $50 a pop.
The backlash from this is going to be devastating. Players who were normally tolerant of WotC's screwups are going to be up in arms. This will end up being the biggest debacle since Chronicles and unless WotC reverses this quickly, it may very well destroy Legacy.
I so want to write to MaRo and tell him what I think of him and his company right now, for all the good it'll do.
The price has already skyrocketed up to $150 because the dealers realize this card is now busted beyond belief.
So players spend $600 or more on a play set, play it, the card gets banned when WotC realizes it screwed up big time and NOW with the card not legal at all, it won't even be worth what it was prior to the banning. Cradle may actually drop to under $50 a pop.
The backlash from this is going to be devastating. Players who were normally tolerant of WotC's screwups are going to be up in arms. This will end up being the biggest debacle since Chronicles and unless WotC reverses this quickly, it may very well destroy Legacy.
I so want to write to MaRo and tell him what I think of him and his company right now, for all the good it'll do.
The backlash from this is going to be devastating. Players who were normally tolerant of WotC's screwups are going to be up in arms. This will end up being the biggest debacle since Chronicles and unless WotC reverses this quickly, it may very well destroy Legacy.
Not even close, if you want to believe that go right ahead though
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Legacy W Death and Taxes W U Merfolk U GWR Enchantress GWR WUG BantWUG
Anyone who gets so upset that they want to quit playing Magic over this, I hope will keep me in mind and kindly lend me those cards until the desire to play returns.
Ahhhh, so much moaning How about we actually play with the new rule changes before we jump to conclusions eh guys? At least, no one has claimed that they had yet, right?
Obviously, as everyone has been panicking about, this will change quite a bit about how walkers are positioned and addressed in the meta. No one really knows how yet.
It also has some flavor problems, but that's somewhat relative - it still has a limiting effect (which only seems less-limiting compared with the old one), and it doesn't make better flavor sense that a unique character in the multiverse runs into itself and they zap each other out of existence.
But, I really (mostly) like the mechanical shift. The "legendary" aspects of those cards should restrict their power levels for deckbuilding and playing for a given player. That's unrelated to how they work when across the table - it's preserving the old school "race to Academy" feel of getting value out of powerful cards before your opponent finds theirs. With the widely-played best legendary stuff, this makes the legendary aspects of these cards feel more powerful by (especially in the case of walkers) pseudo-blocking the opposing ones from getting any use.
Additionally, planeswalkers functioning as a "kill other planeswalker" split card is an awkward design. That's a pretty radical shift in card functionality.
I'm not a fan of the "pick the legend you want to keep" bit, but that might be old-fashioned assumptions anyway. Getting an extra Cradle/Mox activation seems broken, but is still limiting (your second Forest gets use every turn). Since Planeswalkers don't have non-"legendary" counterparts, it seems the most wrong there, as they never get second activations. Maybe you should be able to play/"upgrade" the version of walker but not activate a legend-ruling walker if the old one had already been activated?
TLDR: The old legend rule had arbitrary baggage which could make it an advantage in some cases and functioned outside of the "you can't over-use X bc its too powerful" intention. I like this in the abstract, even though it will mess with how controlly mirrors play out quite a bit.
Just an aside from the sensible conversation about planeswalkers, Jitte, etc. Progenitus is now slightly more resilient as it pretty much only dies to board wipes now.
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Force of Will is kind of like duct tape. Stick it in a deck and it will fix all your problems.
What would a game of Magic between Harry Potter and Voldemort look like?
Could someone PM me and explain why Mox Opal suddenly becomes so busted with this rule change?! I'm just not seeing it, how is it any better than when I use Ravager to turn them into Lotus Petals? Except, this time it's mandatory sacking of one, and I get no counters on my ravager for it...
Sounds like it won't really affect Opal to me at all... You can't tap it for mana in response to a state based action... So really?!
I get why Cradle is busted though, tap it for X mana, play another, sac the tapped one, tap new one for +X more mana...
a Lot of heavily played creatures just got a lot harder to kill...
I'm actually considering stopping playing for a while after the rules change just to see if they restore my faith in them and abolish the rule... It's too volatile...
Seriously?! That's what they want? Legend/Planeswalker wars/Races?! Jesus, really?!
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Mox opal only taps for 1 mana, and you already need 3 artifacts out to use it in the first place, The ONLY reason you should be "petaling" your opals is to Ravager to obtain the win on the same turn. There's a reason Cradle is seeing a 50%-75% price increase, and it's because Cradle makes more mana...
Affinity doesn't really want to petal out its' opals... only one deck wants to do that, and it's in modern... and it might even see Puresteel Paladin banned because of it...
You know, the deck Opal was meant for doesn't want to do that...
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[W]FREE STONEFORGE MYSTIC and JACE THE MINDSCULPTOR[/W]
Mox opal only taps for 1 mana, and you already need 3 artifacts out to use it in the first place, The ONLY reason you should be "petaling" your opals is to Ravager to obtain the win on the same turn. There's a reason Cradle is seeing a 50%-75% price increase, and it's because Cradle makes more mana...
Affinity doesn't really want to petal out its' opals... only one deck wants to do that, and it's in modern... and it might even see Puresteel Paladin banned because of it...
You know, the deck Opal was meant for doesn't want to do that...
Im going to have to intergect here, tezz lists and players of affinity that lack ravangers at the moment will be fine with this, turn 2 tezz is pretty solid, especially when you know you arnt up against permission... drawing multipuls isn't as crippling anymore, and that's a very very good thing
And puresteel will not be banned in modern... the deck is not that consistent
Mox opal only taps for 1 mana, and you already need 3 artifacts out to use it in the first place, The ONLY reason you should be "petaling" your opals is to Ravager to obtain the win on the same turn. There's a reason Cradle is seeing a 50%-75% price increase, and it's because Cradle makes more mana...
Affinity doesn't really want to petal out its' opals... only one deck wants to do that, and it's in modern... and it might even see Puresteel Paladin banned because of it...
You know, the deck Opal was meant for doesn't want to do that...
So you can run 4x Lotus Petal and 4x Mox Opal now. Mox Opal being a slightly better Lotus Petal because it nets you a mana every turn and an extra Mox Opal in hand nets you an extra two mana one turn and 1 mana from then on.
Seems ok to me.
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"Heterological" is heterological if and only if "heterological" is autological
[Legacy]
ANT
Imperial Painter
THis change makes me believe they just wont to sale more legenary stuff such as planeswalkers the price on these will go up because they just got more powerful.
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But agreed. I HATE this rule change. Sure I haven't played with it yet, but in theory I already despise it and what it stands for.
Off the top of my head, these cards concern me a lot.
Jace, being the most expensive, really scares me. Many players have sunk close to $500 into a playset. If he's banned (and it is quite possible now) it is going to leave a bad taste in a lot of player's mouths. It's bad enough that WotC obviously doesn't really care about Legacy, but this rule change could turn the format upside down.
I don't think Standard will be affected too much by it and Modern only a little. But Legacy has the most powerful cards in the game outside of Vintage and I am truly concerned at what this rule change is going to do to it.
And before anybody says I'm overreacting, when Mental Misstep came out, the first thing I thought to myself, after I decided that it wouldn't do too much to Standard, was "OMG...All those 1 drops in Legacy. This is going to turn into MM wars." And I was right. MM was the worst thing to happen to Legacy in years, even though many thought I was crazy.
Well, mark my words, this Legend and Planeswalker change is going to be the worst thing to happen to the banned list since MM almost destroyed Legacy.
I am not hopeful for a pretty finish to this.
BGW Junk / URB Grixis Shadow / RGB Lantern Control / WUBCBant Eldrazi
Current Legacy decks
BUG Shardless BUG / UWR Predict Miracles / RUG Canadian Thresh / WRBG 4c Loam
UB Reanimator
Now we can all share my pain at dealing with JTMS, instead of the Jace players themselves living free from fear.
We might see those walkers that can destroy other walkers rise in value. Particularly Sorin's ultimate. The stolen Walkers now cannot be done away with via the other walkers in the same deck!
Overall record: 139-98-15
Total number of matches: 252
Win percentage ignoring draws: 58.649789
Win percentage including draws: 55.158730
I, for one, will be trying 2 Detention Spheres in my Stoneblade maindeck to combat rival Jittes and Jaces as well as Lilianas. They're good against other things as well. Anyone else want to actually play some Magic?
a program of a slightly different strain.
Tonight my listeners, a new power will rise,
unleashed upon you all in this musical disguise.
Your cities turn to ash, for the broadcast is cursed.
The signal is peaking and can't be reversed.
If you choose my children, you can try to hide.
But I strongly suggest you run for your life."
-The Sermon 2, The Creepshow
As for Planeswalkers, I'm not terribly sure it breaks them. If you have one on the battlefield and you play a second, it's almost like you're just casting an expensive charm. For example, a Liliana on the board turns all the ones in your hand into a 1BB sorcery that says: "Choose one - Target player sacrifices a creature; or each player discards a card." Sure, it gives a little more benefit than that and adds some value to her. But it just doesn't seem game-breaking.
Gaea's Cradle is a legitimate concern.
$150 now.
Lemme play Republican for a moment and say, "Print, baby, print" to WotC.
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/legacy-type-1-5/661941-list-of-stores-that-support-legacy
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?28892-Compilation-Of-Legacy-Streams
I don't own a show and tell deck, and honestly I dismantled my RUG delver about 6 months ago and sold it off for rent so I don't have a whole lot of stake in Legacy right now, but man I am kind of glad I am not vested. It seems like a lot of craziness will result from this. I think playing a show and tell deck is a liability now and the only way to go off is by using omniscience now in order to ensure that you are able to cast it and therefor swinging first. if you just turn 2 show I think you're taking a pretty big gamble.
Before I just ran 4xJTMS to solve the Jace mirror. This is going to be interesting to say the least.
SnT isn't even a deck I worry about. The matchup is easy for me. It's the Jace mirrors that are a pain, especially if they land more than one.
Tabernacle mirrors will be funny too. I guess it might time to get some BBE and just play Jund for Cascade into Pulse.
~~~~~~~~~
Too many to list efficiently. Find me online with the same SN if you want to play, or message me here to set up a time to play.
Modern
~~~~~~~~~
Whatever pile of 75 I throw together the night before without testing. Usually: :symb::symu::symg:
I shall repeat what I said in the main thread for discussing this subject:
The problem with this is both a flavor one and mechanical one: from a flavor/storyline perspective, legendary creatures and planeswalkers represent unique and individual beings, so there cannot be two of the same person in existence at the same time; from a mechanical perspective, the "legend rule" was a way to balance the power of legendary creatures, since they are typically far more powerful for their converted mana cost than are non-legendary creatures of the same cost. I believe that the post-Kamigawa revision of this rule was perfect as it was, so why fix something that was not broken?
“When the people fear the government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.”-Thomas Jefferson
“A vote is like a rifle; its usefulness depends upon the character of its user.”-Theodore Roosevelt
“Patriotism means to stand by one's country; it does not mean to stand by one's president.”-Theodore Roosevelt
I agree. I am starting to fear that this change is going to be a nightmare for Legacy. I may be wrong. I hope I'm wrong. But I have a very bad feeling about this.
I very much agree. Maro on his blog keeps saying that they've done a lot of testing, but I doubt any of that has been with eternal formats.
This is a significantly bigger change than damage on the stack or mana burn. I don't know if it will ruin legacy, but it will certainly completely warp and change the format. This is a pretty significant rules change.
I really see Gaea's Cradle getting banned.
Modern:
UWUW TronUW
Legacy:
WDeath N TaxesW
CEldrazi C
If you couldn't tell I hate greedy blue decks.
Vintage
WWhite Trash
It's worse than just it getting banned.
The price has already skyrocketed up to $150 because the dealers realize this card is now busted beyond belief.
So players spend $600 or more on a play set, play it, the card gets banned when WotC realizes it screwed up big time and NOW with the card not legal at all, it won't even be worth what it was prior to the banning. Cradle may actually drop to under $50 a pop.
The backlash from this is going to be devastating. Players who were normally tolerant of WotC's screwups are going to be up in arms. This will end up being the biggest debacle since Chronicles and unless WotC reverses this quickly, it may very well destroy Legacy.
I so want to write to MaRo and tell him what I think of him and his company right now, for all the good it'll do.
http://markrosewater.tumblr.com/
Go for it. He apparently reads most stuff even if he doesnt respond. And while you are there check out all the damage control going on.
Modern:
UWUW TronUW
Legacy:
WDeath N TaxesW
CEldrazi C
If you couldn't tell I hate greedy blue decks.
Vintage
WWhite Trash
Not even close, if you want to believe that go right ahead though
W Death and Taxes W
U Merfolk U
GWR Enchantress GWR
WUG BantWUG
:nod::nod::nod::nod::nod: thank you very much!
Overall record: 139-98-15
Total number of matches: 252
Win percentage ignoring draws: 58.649789
Win percentage including draws: 55.158730
Obviously, as everyone has been panicking about, this will change quite a bit about how walkers are positioned and addressed in the meta. No one really knows how yet.
It also has some flavor problems, but that's somewhat relative - it still has a limiting effect (which only seems less-limiting compared with the old one), and it doesn't make better flavor sense that a unique character in the multiverse runs into itself and they zap each other out of existence.
But, I really (mostly) like the mechanical shift. The "legendary" aspects of those cards should restrict their power levels for deckbuilding and playing for a given player. That's unrelated to how they work when across the table - it's preserving the old school "race to Academy" feel of getting value out of powerful cards before your opponent finds theirs. With the widely-played best legendary stuff, this makes the legendary aspects of these cards feel more powerful by (especially in the case of walkers) pseudo-blocking the opposing ones from getting any use.
Additionally, planeswalkers functioning as a "kill other planeswalker" split card is an awkward design. That's a pretty radical shift in card functionality.
I'm not a fan of the "pick the legend you want to keep" bit, but that might be old-fashioned assumptions anyway. Getting an extra Cradle/Mox activation seems broken, but is still limiting (your second Forest gets use every turn). Since Planeswalkers don't have non-"legendary" counterparts, it seems the most wrong there, as they never get second activations. Maybe you should be able to play/"upgrade" the version of walker but not activate a legend-ruling walker if the old one had already been activated?
TLDR: The old legend rule had arbitrary baggage which could make it an advantage in some cases and functioned outside of the "you can't over-use X bc its too powerful" intention. I like this in the abstract, even though it will mess with how controlly mirrors play out quite a bit.
BGSpanish InquisitionGB
GFood Chain ElvesG
WUAngry BirdsUW
BUThe Four Horsemen (RIP)UB
Sounds like it won't really affect Opal to me at all... You can't tap it for mana in response to a state based action... So really?!
I get why Cradle is busted though, tap it for X mana, play another, sac the tapped one, tap new one for +X more mana...
a Lot of heavily played creatures just got a lot harder to kill...
I'm actually considering stopping playing for a while after the rules change just to see if they restore my faith in them and abolish the rule... It's too volatile...
Seriously?! That's what they want? Legend/Planeswalker wars/Races?! Jesus, really?!
[W]FREE STONEFORGE MYSTIC and JACE THE MINDSCULPTOR[/W]
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Where did I say tap cradle in response to a state based action?
I said :
Tap Cradle, Add X G mana into mana pool...
Cradle 1 is tapped.
Play Cradle 2
Sacrifice Tapped Cradle...
you now have access to X+X mana.... with one X already being in your mana pool...
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Lotus Petal
Been there, done that...
Mox opal only taps for 1 mana, and you already need 3 artifacts out to use it in the first place, The ONLY reason you should be "petaling" your opals is to Ravager to obtain the win on the same turn. There's a reason Cradle is seeing a 50%-75% price increase, and it's because Cradle makes more mana...
Affinity doesn't really want to petal out its' opals... only one deck wants to do that, and it's in modern... and it might even see Puresteel Paladin banned because of it...
You know, the deck Opal was meant for doesn't want to do that...
[W]FREE STONEFORGE MYSTIC and JACE THE MINDSCULPTOR[/W]
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Im going to have to intergect here, tezz lists and players of affinity that lack ravangers at the moment will be fine with this, turn 2 tezz is pretty solid, especially when you know you arnt up against permission... drawing multipuls isn't as crippling anymore, and that's a very very good thing
And puresteel will not be banned in modern... the deck is not that consistent
Shout out to commandercast for keeping me entertained.
The new rule just made it that consistent...
Think about it, to do the same thing before, the deck needed a total of 3 opals... now, it can do it with one out, one in hand...
it just got a lot more consistent...
[W]FREE STONEFORGE MYSTIC and JACE THE MINDSCULPTOR[/W]
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My Alters Sales Thread
Want a FREE Playset of Foil Baneslayer Angels?!?:
So you can run 4x Lotus Petal and 4x Mox Opal now. Mox Opal being a slightly better Lotus Petal because it nets you a mana every turn and an extra Mox Opal in hand nets you an extra two mana one turn and 1 mana from then on.
Seems ok to me.
[Legacy]
ANT
Imperial Painter