My question to atheists on this forum is how does one explain when someone who is of one particular religion converts to another religion, or even better, when someone who is an atheist converts to a religion?
My question to atheists on this forum is how does one explain when someone who is of one particular religion converts to another religion, or even better, when someone who is an atheist converts to a religion?
While not an atheist myself it seems pretty simple that people make a personal choice because they believe or like another option more. Honestly I don't see your point in bringing this up other then to troll atheists.
The bigger problem HR is how Christians explain people leaving the faith in the first place, particularly when they change to something else. Atheists make no claim to having some beyond the veil answers, yet there are examples of ministers leaving the flock with some very good reasons. Re: John Loftus, Dan Barker, Joe E. Holman.
All people who not only believed in the truth of christianity, but were active participants in convincing people of the truth of christianity. Loftus even studied under Christianities #1 defender.
Atheists have no problem explaining people changing religions, or even atheists finding a religion. Cochese got it in one.
You, on the other hand, have a significant problem in that people who believed, devoutly, in the truth of christianity giving it up. Particularly when you've got examples of very well learned longtime members of the church doing so.
You may as well make this general and ask any religious person the same regarding conversions to other faiths. People are inclined to believe different things with regards to politics, morality, economics... why not religion, too?
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My anecdotal evidence disagrees with yours! EXPLAIN THAT!
Some fall to Pascal's wager: "and prays for sick friends because he considers it harmless to do so".
Some have a existential crisis and decide "there has to be more than this", essentially giving in to a fear of death: "But after going through a midlife crisis and having many things change very quickly, it made me realize my mortality. And when you start to think about death, you start to think about what’s after it. And then you start hoping there is a God. For me, it’s a frightening thought to go nowhere. I also can’t believe that people like Stalin and Hitler are gonna go to the same place as Mother Teresa."
Some people have a personal experience or vision: "... states he met, or experienced, God and that this ended his atheism. [...] he remains skeptical of "the church" and does not belong to any religion."
Whatever their reason may be, be it emotions, intuition, a personal experience, or something else, it feels safe to say no two people have the same journey away from a particular belief and toward another. Everyone has their own reasons.
As was said above in the thread, people change their minds... as simple as that. Denying that people give in to religion would be to deny that religion has an appeal in the first place, which is blatantly untrue.
I suppose I will just have to echo the previous answers. Different religions speak differently to different people. Some people can be swayed by the propositions that religions put forth. Some people buy into Pascal's Wager. Some people appeal to their emotions and personal experiences. People can change their minds about things.
On a side note:
Re: John Loftus, Dan Barker, Joe E. Holman.
I am going to see his talk here at the University of Oklahoma on Friday.
I suppose I will just have to echo the previous answers. Different religions speak differently to different people. Some people can be swayed by the propositions that religions put forth. Some people buy into Pascal's Wager. Some people appeal to their emotions and personal experiences. People can change their minds about things.
On a side note:
I am going to see his talk here at the University of Oklahoma on Friday.
Very nice KurCE, very nice.
I've never been a fan of Pascals Wager, once you know the answers to it, it becomes extremely patronizing of god. Pascal figures he values dishonesty and professed belief over sincerity? I guess we have to hope so?
My question to atheists on this forum is how does one explain when someone who is of one particular religion converts to another religion, or even better, when someone who is an atheist converts to a religion?
sorry for the tl;dr
...
Before I begin, let me say that I am an ex-muslim, an apostate. I consider myself now an Agnostic Atheist.
So, my step-brother made the mistake of taking anti-depressants during university (through legitimate prescription). He was a pretty hardcore atheist and lived a rather secular and materialistic lifestyle. He went through a highly troublesome experience going through bouts of schizophrenia; french-kissing his dad and truly believing that he was Satan incarnate, expressing feelings of lust for my mom, claiming his brother was indeed Jesus, walking about in the nude, hearing voices from beyond, drinking his urine, writing letters and sending them to people who didn't exist and having fits of uncontrollable violence in which he had to be institutionally restrained and tranquilized.
Ultimately, he became the 'god-fearing, soul-submitting, new-school progressive muslim' that he is today.
There were other people in the ward that were sharing similar 'religious' and spiritual struggles, mainly christians, with the exception of one guy who believed he was the incarnation of a Norse mythological figure who kept referring to witch craft and large stone temples of the sort. As depressing as it was to witness all this, it was somewhat fascinating and surreal too. It gave me a unique look into the dimmest depths of the human mind.
I believe what eventually happens is they succumb to the false perceptions of comfort and stability that religion has to offer.
I have a hunch that if an Atheist converts to christianity or some other belief, then they haven't truly grasped Atheism or they only proclaimed to be Atheists to validate their current lifestyle, and eventually convert once they've surpassed living moderately and have hit rock bottom.
But then again, I am not dismissing the possibility that a mentally sound and intellectually active individual can't accept god and religion. I know a few people who have that mindset and we mutually respect each other and our beliefs, albeit, I can really be harsh and straight-up about their beliefs, but that's just in my character.
Asking out a girl is like trying to cast a first turn Necropotence. Sometimes the other player will have the Force of Will to say no. You shouldn't let that stop you from trying it.
I have a hunch that if an Atheist converts to christianity or some other belief, then they haven't truly grasped Atheism or they only proclaimed to be Atheists to validate their current lifestyle, and eventually convert once they've surpassed living moderately and have hit rock bottom.
I disagree. I've known a couple people who started as full knowing atheists and later converted to religion.
People can change, that's really all there is to say on that subject.
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It is always easy to be tolerant and understanding...Until someone presents an opinion completely opposite to your own.
I disagree. I've known a couple people who started as full knowing atheists and later converted to religion.
People can change, that's really all there is to say on that subject.
I don't fully disagree with your counter-argument, however, if I were to rephrase my statement, I would say that a sizeable amount of those people were likely Atheist and misinformed, or in it for the wrong reasons. And again, that's just my hunch, no statistics to pull from or any other type of information of the sort, only from my experience with people. A good degree of people have immense misconceptions as to what Atheism actually means (as I once did) and they should at least educate themselves to some degree or another before they start labeling themselves with -isms, ultimately misrepresenting an entire group of people with a legitimate belief.
Asking out a girl is like trying to cast a first turn Necropotence. Sometimes the other player will have the Force of Will to say no. You shouldn't let that stop you from trying it.
My question to atheists on this forum is how does one explain when someone who is of one particular religion converts to another religion, or even better, when someone who is an atheist converts to a religion?
Well, how do you explain how many theists convert to atheism?
I, myself, converted from being quite a devout Catholic to Agnosticism. How do you explain that?
My question to atheists on this forum is how does one explain when someone who is of one particular religion converts to another religion, or even better, when someone who is an atheist converts to a religion?
I'm not precisely who you're speaking to as I consider myself agnostic, leaning atheist, but I have a hypothesis on how an atheist converts to religion that is more detailed than "people can change their minds".
Take this with a grain of salt; my knowledge of theology beyond Catholicism is limited, and even within Catholicism there is a ton of history and Catechism I don't know. My knowledge of psychology is even more limited, barely beyond Psych 101. With disclaimers out of the way...
I think the reason that some atheists become religious is due to the way human brains function.
While not a matter of absolute 100% certainty, there are certain traits that are common to the human psyche. For example, the need to socialize, the need to feel safe, the instinct to survive and cope with stress, the desire for autonomy and control over one's environment, the desire to learn and understand things, etc.
As far as I'm aware it is generally accepted that primitive mythology existed primarilly as a way to satisfy the need to understand natural phenomenon we had no other explanation for (I say primarilly because I understand religion has a multifacted role in culture; I don't want to oversimplify but I pretty sure that's the biggie). But there is also an idea that is pervasive today, that belief in God of some kind is so universal to human cultures because it is an instinctual perception of what is true. I suspect, however, that belief in God is so universal among cultures because it is our ultimate psychological coping mechanism, the "error code" when all else fails. When a person is faced with a fundamental need that cannot be fullfilled (i.e., we want to understand something but we can't; we want to control a certain aspect of our lives but we can't; etc.) we cope by attributing it to God or "putting it in God's hands".
This fits particularly well with scenarios where someone who does not practice religion turns to prayer during times of great stress. It also explains why people who are heavily involved in science and logic are less likely to believe in God: the more they feel they understand the less that needs to be explained by God. It also explains why people still attribute the unknown to God despite the fact that science has a strong track record for providing explanations for things previously attributed to God.*
And happily, this hypothesis provides all these explanations without degrading anyone.
Granted, this doesn't explain why an atheist would become religious under circumstance where there is no special stress. But, well that one can be reasonably explained by the previous assertion: "people change". Emotional experiences, less personal emphasis on understanding, greater susceptability to fear of the afterlife as aging forces them to face their mortality, sense of community, etc. All sorts of potential reasons.
*Edit: As a side note, this also fits with why 12 Step programs are generally successful. Most substance abusers habitually use drugs as a coping mechanism; the 12 Step program integrates other coping mechanisms into their lives - like support groups - but the first and fundamental step is establishing God as that ultimate coping mechanism.
************
As far as how to explain religious people who convert to another religion, I'm rather befuddled on why this needs to be explained. Sometimes people participate in one faith but discover another one more closely fits their personal beliefs. Nothing shocking here.
I suppose your question might be specifically directed towards the "people are religious because they're indoctrinated sheep" crowd, in which case it makes more sense but... well, what's the point of engaging those people in discussion in the first place?
As far as I'm aware it is generally accepted that primitive mythology existed primarilly as a way to satisfy the need to understand natural phenomenon we had no other explanation for (I say primarilly because I understand religion has a multifacted role in culture; I don't want to oversimplify but I pretty sure that's the biggie). But there is also an idea that is pervasive today, that belief in God of some kind is so universal to human cultures because it is an instinctual perception of what is true. I suspect, however, that belief in God is so universal among cultures because it is our ultimate psychological coping mechanism, the "error code" when all else fails. When a person is faced with a fundamental need that cannot be fullfilled (i.e., we want to understand something but we can't; we want to control a certain aspect of our lives but we can't; etc.) we cope by attributing it to God or "putting it in God's hands".
*nods*
Reminiscent of defense mechanisms from Freudian theory on personality, like rationalization or the reaction-formation defense. One might call this "God mechanism" the ultimate conversion of the greatest anxiety-provoking stimulus (the lack of a higher power) into its direct opposite in extreme form (an unshakable belief in such a higher power).
My question to atheists on this forum is how does one explain when someone who is of one particular religion converts to another religion, or even better, when someone who is an atheist converts to a religion?
...
are you serious?
Are you being serious right now?
How is that a meaningful question at all? What is there to explain?
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How is that a meaningful question at all? What is there to explain?
I find understanding others to be meaningful, yes.
We've had quite a few religious discussions on this forum, as we're all aware, and what I've noticed is that there are many people who do not have a faith or believe in a faith or believe there is value in faith offering explanations of why those who do do. These can range from:
1. Societal pressures
2. Delusion
3. Lack of education
And others.
The thread's question addresses two situations in which these descriptions do not adequately address. The first is in which a person moves to a faith that he was never raised in, making the idea of societal pressure flimsy, and the second is in which a person who has no faith, who is atheistic, moving from atheism to religion and staying there.
Atheists have no problem explaining people changing religions, or even atheists finding a religion.
That's an interesting statement. While I'm aware atheism exists in a broad spectrum, ranging from shades of agnosticism to nihilism, it strikes me as a strange situation for a person who does not believe in anything out there to justify someone like-minded switching to the belief that there is, hence the thread, I'm wondering how this is explained from an atheist's perspective.
Because clearly something happens to people that causes them to go from not believing something to believing something. I'm curious what you believe that something to be.
If nothing else, I think it's worth talking about.
This fits particularly well with scenarios where someone who does not practice religion turns to prayer during times of great stress. It also explains why people who are heavily involved in science and logic are less likely to believe in God: the more they feel they understand the less that needs to be explained by God. It also explains why people still attribute the unknown to God despite the fact that science has a strong track record for providing explanations for things previously attributed to God.*
Except, as you point out yourself:
Granted, this doesn't explain why an atheist would become religious under circumstance where there is no special stress. But, well that one can be reasonably explained by the previous assertion: "people change".
I think we can both agree, though, that saying "people change because people change" leaves one a little unsatisfied.
It also doesn't explain why someone can be steeped and well-versed in science and still believe in religion. I'm not going to deny that there's a link there, cultures that have no scientific understanding will make their own reasons, appealing to gods or spirits or the like, but can that really be marked under the same category of someone who understands very well the nature of physics or biology or what-have-you and still continues to believe in a religion?
I suppose your question might be specifically directed towards the "people are religious because they're indoctrinated sheep" crowd, in which case it makes more sense but... well, what's the point of engaging those people in discussion in the first place?
That's an interesting statement. While I'm aware atheism exists in a broad spectrum, ranging from shades of agnosticism to nihilism, it strikes me as a strange situation for a person who does not believe in anything out there to justify someone like-minded switching to the belief that there is, hence the thread, I'm wondering how this is explained from an atheist's perspective.
Because clearly something happens to people that causes them to go from not believing something to believing something. I'm curious what you believe that something to be.
If nothing else, I think it's worth talking about.
Hey,
Grow a pair and reply to the rest of my post. I remember having more than one line of text.
Atheists have one thing in common. We don't believe in a god. Nihilism and such like that is not a part of atheism. Atheists can be nihilists, but its not a continuum.
Quote from hr »
Because clearly something happens to people that causes them to go from not believing something to believing something. I'm curious what you believe that something to be.
There have been a large number of examples and possibilities given already.
The thread's question addresses two situations in which these descriptions do not adequately address. The first is in which a person moves to a faith that he was never raised in, making the idea of societal pressure flimsy, and the second is in which a person who has no faith, who is atheistic, moving from atheism to religion and staying there.
Everyone's social pressure is different. Everyone lives different lives and has different experiences.
Except, as you point out yourself:
[...]
It also doesn't explain why someone can be steeped and well-versed in science and still believe in religion.
Well, the thing is in psychology an answer is not necessarily the answer. i.e., people are complex, and there may in fact be a certain explanation for certain behavior that is true but doesn't explain every facet of that behavior or that is the only explanation for that behavior. My hypothesis may be 100% correct, but that doesn't mean there aren't any other reasons a person could be religious, nor does it mean a scientific mind mustn't be religious.
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I always just assumed they found something... better. Like someone who has a favorite food then taste a new food and goes, "Wow that is way better." and thus changes their mind.
I'm on my 4th religion now. I change them whenever I find something...better. I am pretty happy with my current one, but I still study others in case there is something I might like more. Nothing but the best for me.
Yes, as Kraj said, you're looking for an easy answer to a question that doesn't have an easy answer. This isn't the best analogy, but it's a little bit like asking why people like peanut-butter & banana sandwiches. You can theorize about toppings and fat content and culture and such, but the 'best' answer is that some people just do, and that's the way it is. Most people have an at least somewhat unique case for why they changed religions. In other words, people are individuals, and while you can give a few answers that cover 'a lot of people', you're never going to cover 'everyone' or even, I think, the majority of people, with one answer. Sometimes life is just like that.
I would go out on a limb, and mention forced conversion rejection.
I doubt so many central americans (mexicans mostly) would be Catholic (as the majority of their population is) had Catholicism NOT been forced upon their ancestors. Their ancestors were conquered, then nearly bred out of genetic purity, as well as forced by intimidation, threat of force, and sometimes even death, to stop worshping the gods they already had, and start worshiping the gods forced upon them.
I doubt so many africans, or even african-americans would be christian, and/or catholic if the Catholic church and the Protestant factions had NOT gone into africa and dominated the religious beliefs of countless native peoples there.
The catholic faith, and the christian faith alike, have a long history of forced conversion.
True that the religion isn't the only reason these people were conquered. However, it goes to special note that once conquered, the people were not allowed to believe in their own native gods for very long.
Then of course, since the spanish conquerors of central america also used sex to breed out as much of the "opposition" as they could.
Now...hundreds of years later...those ties that bind are loosened.
I have to agree with everything Kraj said though. Human brains work a certain way. Not 100% of the time, but close enough that MOST (not all) people eventually need to turn to something, we have a hardwired desire to fill the gaps in our understanding of the world. The brain is very very good at convincing itself of things.
I'm not going to say there is no (G)od, because I do not know.
However....like Thor, Zeus, Horus, and the unfathomable list of gods that have fallen at the side of our road...
I believe that the Gods we have (Yaweh, Allah, Krishna, etc.)...are merely the creations of human minds. God as a deity is so subjective, and everyone has their own interpretation of him, everyone has their own ideas about him...those ideas vary so widely, and all claim to be the ultimate truth...I find it highly unlikely that anyone's subjective idea of god is truly accurate, and even if there is a true "One God", I'm gonna go out on a limb and just not believe in one, until evidence of the "OG" surfaces.
Its like everyone has a subjective idea about a wonderful island no one has ever even been to. I'll wait till I see the island before buying tickets.
As far as atheists coverting....and?
People convert all the time, back and forth, one religion to another, all the time.
Sometimes an atheist gets the "proof" they need. Everyone's "god proof" is different. Some people need a burning bush, other need a personal miracle, other need a brush with death....you name it.
Um, no. For one, religion and science aren't inherently contradictary as the former by definition seeks to explain the non-physical while the latter is expressely limited to explaining the physical.
For another, cognitive dissonance would drive such a person to reconcile those contradictions, not be content with them.
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While not an atheist myself it seems pretty simple that people make a personal choice because they believe or like another option more. Honestly I don't see your point in bringing this up other then to troll atheists.
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The bigger problem HR is how Christians explain people leaving the faith in the first place, particularly when they change to something else. Atheists make no claim to having some beyond the veil answers, yet there are examples of ministers leaving the flock with some very good reasons. Re: John Loftus, Dan Barker, Joe E. Holman.
All people who not only believed in the truth of christianity, but were active participants in convincing people of the truth of christianity. Loftus even studied under Christianities #1 defender.
Atheists have no problem explaining people changing religions, or even atheists finding a religion. Cochese got it in one.
You, on the other hand, have a significant problem in that people who believed, devoutly, in the truth of christianity giving it up. Particularly when you've got examples of very well learned longtime members of the church doing so.
List of former agnostics / atheists
It's hard to make generalizations.
Some fall to Pascal's wager: "and prays for sick friends because he considers it harmless to do so".
Some have a existential crisis and decide "there has to be more than this", essentially giving in to a fear of death: "But after going through a midlife crisis and having many things change very quickly, it made me realize my mortality. And when you start to think about death, you start to think about what’s after it. And then you start hoping there is a God. For me, it’s a frightening thought to go nowhere. I also can’t believe that people like Stalin and Hitler are gonna go to the same place as Mother Teresa."
Some people have a personal experience or vision: "... states he met, or experienced, God and that this ended his atheism. [...] he remains skeptical of "the church" and does not belong to any religion."
Whatever their reason may be, be it emotions, intuition, a personal experience, or something else, it feels safe to say no two people have the same journey away from a particular belief and toward another. Everyone has their own reasons.
As was said above in the thread, people change their minds... as simple as that. Denying that people give in to religion would be to deny that religion has an appeal in the first place, which is blatantly untrue.
On a side note:
I am going to see his talk here at the University of Oklahoma on Friday.
....
I got an imaginary friend, they call me insane...millions of people have an imaginary friend, they call it a religion.
Very nice KurCE, very nice.
I've never been a fan of Pascals Wager, once you know the answers to it, it becomes extremely patronizing of god. Pascal figures he values dishonesty and professed belief over sincerity? I guess we have to hope so?
sorry for the tl;dr
...
Before I begin, let me say that I am an ex-muslim, an apostate. I consider myself now an Agnostic Atheist.
So, my step-brother made the mistake of taking anti-depressants during university (through legitimate prescription). He was a pretty hardcore atheist and lived a rather secular and materialistic lifestyle. He went through a highly troublesome experience going through bouts of schizophrenia; french-kissing his dad and truly believing that he was Satan incarnate, expressing feelings of lust for my mom, claiming his brother was indeed Jesus, walking about in the nude, hearing voices from beyond, drinking his urine, writing letters and sending them to people who didn't exist and having fits of uncontrollable violence in which he had to be institutionally restrained and tranquilized.
Ultimately, he became the 'god-fearing, soul-submitting, new-school progressive muslim' that he is today.
There were other people in the ward that were sharing similar 'religious' and spiritual struggles, mainly christians, with the exception of one guy who believed he was the incarnation of a Norse mythological figure who kept referring to witch craft and large stone temples of the sort. As depressing as it was to witness all this, it was somewhat fascinating and surreal too. It gave me a unique look into the dimmest depths of the human mind.
I believe what eventually happens is they succumb to the false perceptions of comfort and stability that religion has to offer.
I have a hunch that if an Atheist converts to christianity or some other belief, then they haven't truly grasped Atheism or they only proclaimed to be Atheists to validate their current lifestyle, and eventually convert once they've surpassed living moderately and have hit rock bottom.
But then again, I am not dismissing the possibility that a mentally sound and intellectually active individual can't accept god and religion. I know a few people who have that mindset and we mutually respect each other and our beliefs, albeit, I can really be harsh and straight-up about their beliefs, but that's just in my character.
WUBRG
I disagree. I've known a couple people who started as full knowing atheists and later converted to religion.
People can change, that's really all there is to say on that subject.
I don't fully disagree with your counter-argument, however, if I were to rephrase my statement, I would say that a sizeable amount of those people were likely Atheist and misinformed, or in it for the wrong reasons. And again, that's just my hunch, no statistics to pull from or any other type of information of the sort, only from my experience with people. A good degree of people have immense misconceptions as to what Atheism actually means (as I once did) and they should at least educate themselves to some degree or another before they start labeling themselves with -isms, ultimately misrepresenting an entire group of people with a legitimate belief.
WUBRG
I, myself, converted from being quite a devout Catholic to Agnosticism. How do you explain that?
I'm not precisely who you're speaking to as I consider myself agnostic, leaning atheist, but I have a hypothesis on how an atheist converts to religion that is more detailed than "people can change their minds".
Take this with a grain of salt; my knowledge of theology beyond Catholicism is limited, and even within Catholicism there is a ton of history and Catechism I don't know. My knowledge of psychology is even more limited, barely beyond Psych 101. With disclaimers out of the way...
I think the reason that some atheists become religious is due to the way human brains function.
While not a matter of absolute 100% certainty, there are certain traits that are common to the human psyche. For example, the need to socialize, the need to feel safe, the instinct to survive and cope with stress, the desire for autonomy and control over one's environment, the desire to learn and understand things, etc.
As far as I'm aware it is generally accepted that primitive mythology existed primarilly as a way to satisfy the need to understand natural phenomenon we had no other explanation for (I say primarilly because I understand religion has a multifacted role in culture; I don't want to oversimplify but I pretty sure that's the biggie). But there is also an idea that is pervasive today, that belief in God of some kind is so universal to human cultures because it is an instinctual perception of what is true. I suspect, however, that belief in God is so universal among cultures because it is our ultimate psychological coping mechanism, the "error code" when all else fails. When a person is faced with a fundamental need that cannot be fullfilled (i.e., we want to understand something but we can't; we want to control a certain aspect of our lives but we can't; etc.) we cope by attributing it to God or "putting it in God's hands".
This fits particularly well with scenarios where someone who does not practice religion turns to prayer during times of great stress. It also explains why people who are heavily involved in science and logic are less likely to believe in God: the more they feel they understand the less that needs to be explained by God. It also explains why people still attribute the unknown to God despite the fact that science has a strong track record for providing explanations for things previously attributed to God.*
And happily, this hypothesis provides all these explanations without degrading anyone.
Granted, this doesn't explain why an atheist would become religious under circumstance where there is no special stress. But, well that one can be reasonably explained by the previous assertion: "people change". Emotional experiences, less personal emphasis on understanding, greater susceptability to fear of the afterlife as aging forces them to face their mortality, sense of community, etc. All sorts of potential reasons.
*Edit: As a side note, this also fits with why 12 Step programs are generally successful. Most substance abusers habitually use drugs as a coping mechanism; the 12 Step program integrates other coping mechanisms into their lives - like support groups - but the first and fundamental step is establishing God as that ultimate coping mechanism.
************
As far as how to explain religious people who convert to another religion, I'm rather befuddled on why this needs to be explained. Sometimes people participate in one faith but discover another one more closely fits their personal beliefs. Nothing shocking here.
I suppose your question might be specifically directed towards the "people are religious because they're indoctrinated sheep" crowd, in which case it makes more sense but... well, what's the point of engaging those people in discussion in the first place?
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She knows why.
Reminiscent of defense mechanisms from Freudian theory on personality, like rationalization or the reaction-formation defense. One might call this "God mechanism" the ultimate conversion of the greatest anxiety-provoking stimulus (the lack of a higher power) into its direct opposite in extreme form (an unshakable belief in such a higher power).
Yeah.
Thanks to the [Æther] shop for the sig!
...
are you serious?
Are you being serious right now?
How is that a meaningful question at all? What is there to explain?
Awesome avatar provided by Krashbot @ [Epic Graphics].
I'm not understanding the hostility.
I find understanding others to be meaningful, yes.
We've had quite a few religious discussions on this forum, as we're all aware, and what I've noticed is that there are many people who do not have a faith or believe in a faith or believe there is value in faith offering explanations of why those who do do. These can range from:
1. Societal pressures
2. Delusion
3. Lack of education
And others.
The thread's question addresses two situations in which these descriptions do not adequately address. The first is in which a person moves to a faith that he was never raised in, making the idea of societal pressure flimsy, and the second is in which a person who has no faith, who is atheistic, moving from atheism to religion and staying there.
Well, one assumes that, yes, but my question is why.
That's an interesting statement. While I'm aware atheism exists in a broad spectrum, ranging from shades of agnosticism to nihilism, it strikes me as a strange situation for a person who does not believe in anything out there to justify someone like-minded switching to the belief that there is, hence the thread, I'm wondering how this is explained from an atheist's perspective.
Because clearly something happens to people that causes them to go from not believing something to believing something. I'm curious what you believe that something to be.
If nothing else, I think it's worth talking about.
*Raises hand* I was one.
Except, as you point out yourself:
I think we can both agree, though, that saying "people change because people change" leaves one a little unsatisfied.
It also doesn't explain why someone can be steeped and well-versed in science and still believe in religion. I'm not going to deny that there's a link there, cultures that have no scientific understanding will make their own reasons, appealing to gods or spirits or the like, but can that really be marked under the same category of someone who understands very well the nature of physics or biology or what-have-you and still continues to believe in a religion?
Hahaha, astute on both observations.
Hey,
Grow a pair and reply to the rest of my post. I remember having more than one line of text.
Atheists have one thing in common. We don't believe in a god. Nihilism and such like that is not a part of atheism. Atheists can be nihilists, but its not a continuum.
There have been a large number of examples and possibilities given already.
Being angry at god doesn't make you an atheist.
Very very true. It, in fact, makes you a theist.
Everyone's social pressure is different. Everyone lives different lives and has different experiences.
Well, the thing is in psychology an answer is not necessarily the answer. i.e., people are complex, and there may in fact be a certain explanation for certain behavior that is true but doesn't explain every facet of that behavior or that is the only explanation for that behavior. My hypothesis may be 100% correct, but that doesn't mean there aren't any other reasons a person could be religious, nor does it mean a scientific mind mustn't be religious.
Current New Favorite Person™: Mallory Archer
She knows why.
I'm on my 4th religion now. I change them whenever I find something...better. I am pretty happy with my current one, but I still study others in case there is something I might like more. Nothing but the best for me.
Control is the ultimate expression of power.
I doubt so many central americans (mexicans mostly) would be Catholic (as the majority of their population is) had Catholicism NOT been forced upon their ancestors. Their ancestors were conquered, then nearly bred out of genetic purity, as well as forced by intimidation, threat of force, and sometimes even death, to stop worshping the gods they already had, and start worshiping the gods forced upon them.
I doubt so many africans, or even african-americans would be christian, and/or catholic if the Catholic church and the Protestant factions had NOT gone into africa and dominated the religious beliefs of countless native peoples there.
The catholic faith, and the christian faith alike, have a long history of forced conversion.
True that the religion isn't the only reason these people were conquered. However, it goes to special note that once conquered, the people were not allowed to believe in their own native gods for very long.
Then of course, since the spanish conquerors of central america also used sex to breed out as much of the "opposition" as they could.
Now...hundreds of years later...those ties that bind are loosened.
I have to agree with everything Kraj said though. Human brains work a certain way. Not 100% of the time, but close enough that MOST (not all) people eventually need to turn to something, we have a hardwired desire to fill the gaps in our understanding of the world. The brain is very very good at convincing itself of things.
I'm not going to say there is no (G)od, because I do not know.
However....like Thor, Zeus, Horus, and the unfathomable list of gods that have fallen at the side of our road...
I believe that the Gods we have (Yaweh, Allah, Krishna, etc.)...are merely the creations of human minds. God as a deity is so subjective, and everyone has their own interpretation of him, everyone has their own ideas about him...those ideas vary so widely, and all claim to be the ultimate truth...I find it highly unlikely that anyone's subjective idea of god is truly accurate, and even if there is a true "One God", I'm gonna go out on a limb and just not believe in one, until evidence of the "OG" surfaces.
Its like everyone has a subjective idea about a wonderful island no one has ever even been to. I'll wait till I see the island before buying tickets.
As far as atheists coverting....and?
People convert all the time, back and forth, one religion to another, all the time.
Sometimes an atheist gets the "proof" they need. Everyone's "god proof" is different. Some people need a burning bush, other need a personal miracle, other need a brush with death....you name it.
Thanks to Xenphire @ Inkfox for the amazing new sig
“Thus strangely are our souls constructed, and by slight ligaments
are we bound to prosperity and ruin.”
― Mary Shelley, Frankenstein
Cognitive dissonance.
Points at Kraj's most recent post.
Um, no. For one, religion and science aren't inherently contradictary as the former by definition seeks to explain the non-physical while the latter is expressely limited to explaining the physical.
For another, cognitive dissonance would drive such a person to reconcile those contradictions, not be content with them.
Current New Favorite Person™: Mallory Archer
She knows why.