I stumbled across http://www.freerice.com/ a while ago, which donates grains of rice to the UN World Food program for success in academic games. It started with English Vocabulary, but has since grown to include mathematics and chemistry.
Anyway, the English Vocabulary game is quite simple: you're presented with an English word and four possible synonyms, and you have to choose the correct definition/synonym. Words are sorted according to a level system. Level 1 words are the easiest and level 60 words are the most difficult.
As I played, I worked my way up to level 10, 15, 20, and level 35 words. I've since inched upward to level 38, but seem to have hit a wall.
I'm quite interested in linguistics and etymologies, so I decided to bring up Merriam-Webster's online dictionary in another tab, to look up words I had never heard of (AFTER guessing. I don't use it to cheat especially since the game repeats words you miss so you can learn new words), and I noticed an interesting trend: most of the words I was getting incorrect have their roots in the 12th, 13th, and 14th centuries, marked as Middle English words. Here are a few examples of the words I'm talking about that I encountered in the game (these definitions are from the Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary):
pate: noun, Middle English
14th century
1: head
2: the crown of the head
3chiefly disparaging : brain
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doff: transitive verb, Middle English, from don to do + of off
14th century
1 a: to remove (an article of wear) from the body b: to take off (the hat) in greeting or as a sign of respect
2: to rid oneself of : put aside
— doff one's hat to or doff one's cap to : to show respect to : salute
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sapience: noun,
Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French, from Latin sapientia, from sapient-, sapiens, present participle
14th century
wisdom , sagacity
An important characteristic of the types of words I'm referring to is that they use roots that are extinct in Modern English. Now, most people recognize that there are vast differences between Old, Middle, and Modern English. So much difference, in fact, that they can be considered three unique languages.
The other important observation that I'm making is that when people use the term English, they really mean Modern English.
So, should words like doff, pate, and sapience be considered to be part of the English language?
So, should words like doff, pate, and sapience be considered to be part of the English language?
They're still used and understood today (by me, for one). So, yes. Once you get to the high forties in that game, you start to see some really bizarre words; my "wall" is about 50. But anyway, there's no bright line between "English" and "not English"; words just becomes "less English" as fewer and fewer native English speakers know them.
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Vive, vale. Siquid novisti rectius istis,
candidus inperti; si nil, his utere mecum.
Middle English is NOT English (aka, Modern English). I think they're different enough to be considered completely different (yet obviously directly related) languages. It just so happens that some words from that language (and many others) are present and valid in the English language. English is famous for not changing the spelling/spelling from their original one in their original language (I have no idea why, to feel superior, maybe), even when they should (which I consider stupid, as some words, for example, coming from French end up too different by trying to stay the same, which doesn't work). Some words stick as the language evolves. Only the already accepted and widely recognized names from ME should be considered part of the Modern English language, in my opinion.
Middle English is NOT English (aka, Modern English). I think they're different enough to be considered completely different (yet obviously directly related) languages. It just so happens that some words from that language (and many others) are present and valid in the English language. English is famous for not changing the spelling/spelling from their original one in their original language (I have no idea why, to feel superior, maybe), even when they should (which I consider stupid, as some words, for example, coming from French end up too different by trying to stay the same, which doesn't work). Some words stick as the language evolves. Only the already accepted and widely recognized names from ME should be considered part of the Modern English language, in my opinion.
It does seem to be rare that loanwords brought into English have their spelling changed, or it takes a very long time for it to happen. The only example I can think of is canyon, which was originally cañon in Spanish. Unless you count depcrated accent marks, which are quite common (entree, fiancee, elan, etc).
That further proves my point. English has 1001 reasons to adequate the spelling and pronunciation of loanwords to better fit its style, yet it rarely does. English pronunciation is too different than other languages' to let words go 'unchanged'. The pronunciation of "canyon" defers severely from that of "cañón". If English were this sort of Lingua Franca that had all the phonetic codes of every language, then it'd be acceptable, but things standing as they are... it should take other languages' initiative.
Should American spellings of words be considered English? Or Australian?
I see no problem with Middle English. I have heard all those words, and even have used doff in casual conversation (granted, one of my friends is a linguist so casual conversation can get a bit odd). I think it should be considered English, and while it won't crop up in everyday use very often, I should expect it would be used for purposes of academia or stuff like crosswords (and this free-rice thing).
Just my $.02
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I was pretty excited for Modern.
Not so much anymore.
That further proves my point. English has 1001 reasons to adequate the spelling and pronunciation of loanwords to better fit its style, yet it rarely does. English pronunciation is too different than other languages' to let words go 'unchanged'. The pronunciation of "canyon" defers severely from that of "cañón". If English were this sort of Lingua Franca that had all the phonetic codes of every language, then it'd be acceptable, but things standing as they are... it should take other languages' initiative.
You're assuming that other languages somehow preserve the pronunciation of loanwords, which they certainly do not. Japanese is a perfect example of this, because it simply does not contain phonemes for multiple-consonant syllables (except for 'n')... and it can't distinguish between the "r" and "l" sound. Therefore, "rule" becomes ruuru in Japanese.
Regarding the original question, of course they should be used, or else fantasy and science fiction would be boring! If you look at that "Twinkie, Tofu, Okra" article that Wizards puts out every so often, you'll see that many of the terms they "invent" for card names are often derived from archaic sources. Lorwyn/Shadowmoor blocks are perfect examples of this, with many Middle English or Welsh-inspired words.
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Do I Contradict Myself? Very Well Then I Contradict Myself.
An important characteristic of the types of words I'm referring to is that they use roots that are extinct in Modern English. Now, most people recognize that there are vast differences between Old, Middle, and Modern English. So much difference, in fact, that they can be considered three unique languages.
The other important observation that I'm making is that when people use the term English, they really mean Modern English.
So, should words like doff, pate, and sapience be considered to be part of the English language?
You're misunderstanding the significance of "Middle English" in the etymology. It's saying that that's where the word originated or where we've found it's earliest usage, not that it isn't still a commonly used modern English word. The word "the" also says "Middle English" in its etymology section. The word "rouge" says "French", of course, but it's still a part of the English language, too.
The only one of those three I didn't know was sapience, never heard it in my entire life.
'Sapience' was the only one I knew since it is an obvious derivate from Latin as in 'homo sapiens'.
I am not a native English speaker so for me level 40 is as far I can go. Having learned English as a foreign language in a non-English speaking country I have been mostly exposed to the more formal business English. I also had limited exposure to more elederly English-speakers so I really had no source of English words that are not in formal or popular colture usage.
On the other hand, having been exposed to multiple other European languages, I seem more likely to know/deduct the meaning of obscure English words with roots in French or Latin.
They're still used and understood today (by me, for one). So, yes. Once you get to the high forties in that game, you start to see some really bizarre words; my "wall" is about 50. But anyway, there's no bright line between "English" and "not English"; words just becomes "less English" as fewer and fewer native English speakers know them.
Agreed. The three cases you cited are all used often enough that they have a place in modern English.
As for your question, I think it's not really an issue. The majority of middle English survives into the 21st century in some form, and that which does not largely consists of words that refer to things that are no longer a part of everyday life.
You're assuming that other languages somehow preserve the pronunciation of loanwords, which they certainly do not. Japanese is a perfect example of this, because it simply does not contain phonemes for multiple-consonant syllables (except for 'n')... and it can't distinguish between the "r" and "l" sound. Therefore, "rule" becomes ruuru in Japanese.
Ehm... I actually meant the opposite of "assuming that other languages somehow preserve the pronunciation of loanwords", yet I agree with everything else you said. I was referring exactly to the "ruuru" case: other languages adapt the pronunciation of loanwords to better fit their own phonemes... I understand how a statement about wording can get the wrong wording.:p
For the record: I have a fairly extensive vocabulary yet I hadn't heard/read the words "pate" or "doff". Mind you, those are the English words I have most trouble with; the ones that come from Latin are a piece of cake to me (since my native languages/those I learned before English are both derived from Latin).
At the very least, pate should be recognized by fans of the Phoenix Wright series of video games. The word is used in the 4th Game, Apollo Justice, and as a pretty relevant piece of dialogue as well in the 1st case in the game.
Yeah, words like that should be English words. Heck I use the words ergo and meh a lot. Ergo is derived from Latin and means therefore. Meh is an expression of boredom.
I'm only familier with modern english so I've to ask this first. Where old and middle english the standard english of there time or dialects? I wouldn't understand mutch of my ancestors because most regions had there own dialect. This however doesn't mean that it wasn't the same language. It is clearly the same language only at an earlier stage.
The "Old English" we know was actually just the most prevalent dialect at the time, I think because the ruler of the kingdom where it was spoken (Anglia?) was really big on written records. In fact, before that happened, experts barely know what "true" Old English sounded like.
Middle English, though, was the common form that came into use after England was invaded by the Normans.
Like i said, I'm not at home at this topic, but wouldn't u expect that old and midde english at a lesser degree would have a lot of celtic influence while modern has been influenced the most by french?
English has inherited very little, linguistically, from celtic, but we owe a lot of loanwords and some grammatical things to the French. French influence, for example, mostly eliminated the Old English inflection system (which we retain in very few cases... he, him, his, etc. being examples). Although (and this is rather interesting IMO) there were two waves of French migration into England: One from Normandy in 1066, and one from Anjou sometime later. The dialects were different enough that the English thought they were two different languages, so they borrowed esentially the same words again. That's why we have "castle" and "chateau," or "warden" and "guardian," for example.
This prob the only thing thar iritates me about the english language. It never does any trouble to proununce the words right. I'm not saying that I proununce every english word right, but it hurts me everytime I hear a word being raped by an English person.
While this paragraph is full of irony, I can't help but agree with you. Of course, sometimes we encounter a lot of Latin-derived jargon or something that's technically "English" but rarely used; then it's possibly okay.
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Do I Contradict Myself? Very Well Then I Contradict Myself.
Middle English is still English, it's a form of the language used in the late Middle Ages.
Some words are outdated, some are just plain never used anymore. Pronunciation and spelling reforms have changed the look of the language. The introduction of printed word, and later of TV and radio, have accelerated changes to grammar and spelling. But underneath all the changes, it's still the same language. It still uses the same word order, same verb conjugation system (more or less), still shares a large number of vocabulary words with modern English and no other language. The very fact that many students can read Chaucer in high school or college, but not medieval German or French unless we've learned those languages - should give you a clue as to exactly how close these two are.
Sure, you have to go to advanced classes to learn how to write and pronounce Middle English. But you can recognize it when you see it - it's English!
Old English on the other hand...see, some might argue it's still English, others think it should be seen as a separate entity; a form of early medieval Low German or dialect of the Danish language brought to the British Isles early in the 5th century where it evolved separately. Hence why some people call it Anglo-Saxon instead of Old English, because most students definitely will NOT recognize it as English, or be able to decipher it, if they sit down with a copy of Beowulf and just try to muddle through it. And I could imagine the church fathers doing spinouts in their hallowed graves, listening to Saxon monks clumsily grafting Germanic endings on common Latin words to talk about the nuts and bolts of Christianity to fellow Saxon converts, or tell acolytes where to put their inkwells and how and when to pray. The language changed dramatically with the introduction of Christianity and again with the growth of continental missions, again with the Norman conquest...you get the picture.
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Anyway, the English Vocabulary game is quite simple: you're presented with an English word and four possible synonyms, and you have to choose the correct definition/synonym. Words are sorted according to a level system. Level 1 words are the easiest and level 60 words are the most difficult.
As I played, I worked my way up to level 10, 15, 20, and level 35 words. I've since inched upward to level 38, but seem to have hit a wall.
I'm quite interested in linguistics and etymologies, so I decided to bring up Merriam-Webster's online dictionary in another tab, to look up words I had never heard of (AFTER guessing. I don't use it to cheat especially since the game repeats words you miss so you can learn new words), and I noticed an interesting trend: most of the words I was getting incorrect have their roots in the 12th, 13th, and 14th centuries, marked as Middle English words. Here are a few examples of the words I'm talking about that I encountered in the game (these definitions are from the Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary):
pate: noun, Middle English
14th century
1: head
2: the crown of the head
3chiefly disparaging : brain
----------
doff: transitive verb, Middle English, from don to do + of off
14th century
1 a: to remove (an article of wear) from the body b: to take off (the hat) in greeting or as a sign of respect
2: to rid oneself of : put aside
— doff one's hat to or doff one's cap to : to show respect to : salute
----------
sapience: noun,
Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French, from Latin sapientia, from sapient-, sapiens, present participle
14th century
wisdom , sagacity
An important characteristic of the types of words I'm referring to is that they use roots that are extinct in Modern English. Now, most people recognize that there are vast differences between Old, Middle, and Modern English. So much difference, in fact, that they can be considered three unique languages.
The other important observation that I'm making is that when people use the term English, they really mean Modern English.
So, should words like doff, pate, and sapience be considered to be part of the English language?
They're still used and understood today (by me, for one). So, yes. Once you get to the high forties in that game, you start to see some really bizarre words; my "wall" is about 50. But anyway, there's no bright line between "English" and "not English"; words just becomes "less English" as fewer and fewer native English speakers know them.
candidus inperti; si nil, his utere mecum.
Dry up, O Sea.
Burn out, O Sun.
Grant us power Earthly Leaders and Gatekeepers of Hell.
Guide us Makers of the Underworld.
I like 4/4s for 7.
Point taken, blinking spirit. I'm really enjoying the game and hope to break my way into the forties.
It does seem to be rare that loanwords brought into English have their spelling changed, or it takes a very long time for it to happen. The only example I can think of is canyon, which was originally cañon in Spanish. Unless you count depcrated accent marks, which are quite common (entree, fiancee, elan, etc).
I like 4/4s for 7.
I see no problem with Middle English. I have heard all those words, and even have used doff in casual conversation (granted, one of my friends is a linguist so casual conversation can get a bit odd). I think it should be considered English, and while it won't crop up in everyday use very often, I should expect it would be used for purposes of academia or stuff like crosswords (and this free-rice thing).
Just my $.02
Not so much anymore.
You're assuming that other languages somehow preserve the pronunciation of loanwords, which they certainly do not. Japanese is a perfect example of this, because it simply does not contain phonemes for multiple-consonant syllables (except for 'n')... and it can't distinguish between the "r" and "l" sound. Therefore, "rule" becomes ruuru in Japanese.
Regarding the original question, of course they should be used, or else fantasy and science fiction would be boring! If you look at that "Twinkie, Tofu, Okra" article that Wizards puts out every so often, you'll see that many of the terms they "invent" for card names are often derived from archaic sources. Lorwyn/Shadowmoor blocks are perfect examples of this, with many Middle English or Welsh-inspired words.
Very Well Then I Contradict Myself.
You're misunderstanding the significance of "Middle English" in the etymology. It's saying that that's where the word originated or where we've found it's earliest usage, not that it isn't still a commonly used modern English word. The word "the" also says "Middle English" in its etymology section. The word "rouge" says "French", of course, but it's still a part of the English language, too.
'Sapience' was the only one I knew since it is an obvious derivate from Latin as in 'homo sapiens'.
I am not a native English speaker so for me level 40 is as far I can go. Having learned English as a foreign language in a non-English speaking country I have been mostly exposed to the more formal business English. I also had limited exposure to more elederly English-speakers so I really had no source of English words that are not in formal or popular colture usage.
On the other hand, having been exposed to multiple other European languages, I seem more likely to know/deduct the meaning of obscure English words with roots in French or Latin.
Agreed. The three cases you cited are all used often enough that they have a place in modern English.
As for your question, I think it's not really an issue. The majority of middle English survives into the 21st century in some form, and that which does not largely consists of words that refer to things that are no longer a part of everyday life.
Ehm... I actually meant the opposite of "assuming that other languages somehow preserve the pronunciation of loanwords", yet I agree with everything else you said. I was referring exactly to the "ruuru" case: other languages adapt the pronunciation of loanwords to better fit their own phonemes... I understand how a statement about wording can get the wrong wording.:p
For the record: I have a fairly extensive vocabulary yet I hadn't heard/read the words "pate" or "doff". Mind you, those are the English words I have most trouble with; the ones that come from Latin are a piece of cake to me (since my native languages/those I learned before English are both derived from Latin).
I like 4/4s for 7.
Did anyone else notice a ton of words that show up in Magic? There were even a few words I wouldn't have known except for Magic.
Yeah, words like that should be English words. Heck I use the words ergo and meh a lot. Ergo is derived from Latin and means therefore. Meh is an expression of boredom.
The "Old English" we know was actually just the most prevalent dialect at the time, I think because the ruler of the kingdom where it was spoken (Anglia?) was really big on written records. In fact, before that happened, experts barely know what "true" Old English sounded like.
Middle English, though, was the common form that came into use after England was invaded by the Normans.
English has inherited very little, linguistically, from celtic, but we owe a lot of loanwords and some grammatical things to the French. French influence, for example, mostly eliminated the Old English inflection system (which we retain in very few cases... he, him, his, etc. being examples). Although (and this is rather interesting IMO) there were two waves of French migration into England: One from Normandy in 1066, and one from Anjou sometime later. The dialects were different enough that the English thought they were two different languages, so they borrowed esentially the same words again. That's why we have "castle" and "chateau," or "warden" and "guardian," for example.
While this paragraph is full of irony, I can't help but agree with you. Of course, sometimes we encounter a lot of Latin-derived jargon or something that's technically "English" but rarely used; then it's possibly okay.
Very Well Then I Contradict Myself.
Some words are outdated, some are just plain never used anymore. Pronunciation and spelling reforms have changed the look of the language. The introduction of printed word, and later of TV and radio, have accelerated changes to grammar and spelling. But underneath all the changes, it's still the same language. It still uses the same word order, same verb conjugation system (more or less), still shares a large number of vocabulary words with modern English and no other language. The very fact that many students can read Chaucer in high school or college, but not medieval German or French unless we've learned those languages - should give you a clue as to exactly how close these two are.
Sure, you have to go to advanced classes to learn how to write and pronounce Middle English. But you can recognize it when you see it - it's English!
Old English on the other hand...see, some might argue it's still English, others think it should be seen as a separate entity; a form of early medieval Low German or dialect of the Danish language brought to the British Isles early in the 5th century where it evolved separately. Hence why some people call it Anglo-Saxon instead of Old English, because most students definitely will NOT recognize it as English, or be able to decipher it, if they sit down with a copy of Beowulf and just try to muddle through it. And I could imagine the church fathers doing spinouts in their hallowed graves, listening to Saxon monks clumsily grafting Germanic endings on common Latin words to talk about the nuts and bolts of Christianity to fellow Saxon converts, or tell acolytes where to put their inkwells and how and when to pray. The language changed dramatically with the introduction of Christianity and again with the growth of continental missions, again with the Norman conquest...you get the picture.