MTG Salvation

During a game; anywhere between 1 hour to 3. More if hosting.

Quote from Prophylaxis

Just a question: How many hours a day do you guys spend composing Mafia posts?

Depends entirely on situation. A few minutes for simple posts, a few hours for PBPA's.

I usually write something down, and then scrap it. Then write again. Takes me a couple times to get what I'm trying to say across. So maybe 5-8 minutes on a single post. And I post A LOT in games. So I don't know what that averages out to.

Quote from Prophylaxis

Just a question: How many hours a day do you guys spend composing Mafia posts?

Its a game so usually no more than a few minutes unless I've caught scum/defending myself.

Quote from Prophylaxis

Just a question: How many hours a day do you guys spend composing Mafia posts?

Depends on the activity of the games that I am in.

I play from work (5 Days a week at least 8 hours a day) and post as I feel needed.

Simple posts take minutes to respond while more thought out posts take up to 10 - 20 minutes.

PbPa's take anywhere from 25 minutes - 3 hours. It all depends on who the player is and what actions/behavior they have shown.

So guys, generally speaking, what do you find scummy? Just name one thing, preferably your favorite to catch scum with. No repeats.

My favorite is self-contradiction aka inconsistent mindset.

Iso, I was just about to answer with the same thing.

But to go with another thing, is fringe people. You know those ones who are on every case, but not necessarily the most vocal. They'll sit back and vote for you at L-4 or 3 and just ride that.

This one is easy: The first person to mention neutrals or be paranoid about neutrals.

Quote from Guardman

This one is easy: The first person to mention neutrals or be paranoid about neutrals.

That one is my favorite.

Another I like is an over reaction to nothing at all.

Explain what you mean by nothing at all?

Quote from Iso

So guys, generally speaking, what do you find scummy? Just name one thing, preferably your favorite to catch scum with. No repeats.

My favorite is self-contradiction aka inconsistent mindset.

My favorite is when Iso claims the fourth power role in a Basic.

Quote from Macius

Iso, I was just about to answer with the same thing.

But to go with another thing, is fringe people. You know those ones who are on every case, but not necessarily the most vocal. They'll sit back and vote for you at L-4 or 3 and just ride that.

Fringe person here. I think I'm always on the lynch at the end of the day, unless I'm the lynch.

Quote from Iso

Explain what you mean by nothing at all?

Just plainly speaking. Player has no pressure, but yet implodes.

Quote from Void

Just plainly speaking. Player has no pressure, but yet implodes.

You mean like me whenever I'm a townie?

You mean like me whenever I'm going to be lynched?

Also I laughed Wheat.

MORE INPUT!

You should know my opinion. I don't think that you can look at specific things and assume it makes someone scum. These tricks might work in newbie games, but I just think it's silly the rest of the time.

Nothing is universal or 100% in mafia. Everything is shades of gray.

Quote from Iso

So guys, generally speaking, what do you find scummy? Just name one thing, preferably your favorite to catch scum with. No repeats.

My favorite is self-contradiction aka inconsistent mindset.

This is also my favorite. As long as it is a real contradiction, and not something that can be explained.

I like lynching liars. And lurkers. And lorans.

I am of the opinion that the tell Iso and Cyan favor is the most reliable.

It's pretty limited to the late game, but my bread and butter for scumhunting is analyzing interactions with dead scum. The timing and manner of attacks and defenses of dead scum is a goldmine.

Inconsistent pay is pretty common in townies, I think it has to apply directly to motivation to be a good tell.

When they flip.

Half joking, but I'm not too great at reading people yet. I'm good at being chosen as a vig. But I suck at aiming. I tend to second guess myself a lot. Especially when it's an emotional appeal.


I've tried to take steps to rectify that. But, it'll take a few more games to see if it's working.

I think the hosting thread is mainly for signing up to host so I'm going to post this here.

Does any one have a spreadsheet or table or Word doc of some sort that they use for game design. I have an idea for a game but am finding it hard to think of a good way to put it down on paper.

Quote from Prophylaxis

I use Quicktopic to put my initial designs on paper, but you might have better luck with Google Docs. I really shouldn't be using QT.

Is there a particular format that you use?

Quote from EronTheRelentless

I think the hosting thread is mainly for signing up to host so I'm going to post this here.

Does any one have a spreadsheet or table or Word doc of some sort that they use for game design. I have an idea for a game but am finding it hard to think of a good way to put it down on paper.

I just use text files. Multiple text files. I will usually start with brainstorming - I will have an idea an write down pretty much everything I can think of on it. Rules, roles, flavour, whatever. Eventually I start to narrow things down, at which point I switch to a new text file ("GameIdea2.txt") and start refining ideas, moving some things over, discarding the old ones... but always keeping the old ideas in the first text file. After a while I will have added some things to my current file and removed others, and then will move on to GameIdea3 and so on. I really like having the ability to go back and look at discarded ideas later, in case I need to replace a role or have a new idea.

The other thing I've found useful is to think about game setups from both a mechanical and a flavour point of view. You will usually find you are doing one more than the other originally - just looking at my games, for example, Powerful Wizard mafia was designed flavourfully, with me thinking up roles for various mages, while Symbiote mafia was designed around the mechanic of the Connection. Whichever one you are doing, take some time to think about the other one as well. It's both a useful source of ideas and a nice break.

Quote from RobRoy

I just use text files. Multiple text files. I will usually start with brainstorming - I will have an idea an write down pretty much everything I can think of on it. Rules, roles, flavour, whatever. Eventually I start to narrow things down, at which point I switch to a new text file ("GameIdea2.txt") and start refining ideas, moving some things over, discarding the old ones... but always keeping the old ideas in the first text file. After a while I will have added some things to my current file and removed others, and then will move on to GameIdea3 and so on. I really like having the ability to go back and look at discarded ideas later, in case I need to replace a role or have a new idea.

The other thing I've found useful is to think about game setups from both a mechanical and a flavour point of view. You will usually find you are doing one more than the other originally - just looking at my games, for example, Powerful Wizard mafia was designed flavourfully, with me thinking up roles for various mages, while Symbiote mafia was designed around the mechanic of the Connection. Whichever one you are doing, take some time to think about the other one as well. It's both a useful source of ideas and a nice break.

This is pretty much what I do, too.

First I do my basic skeleton; just all the roles without flavor. I check for balance and switch roles around until I'm satisfied. This is a good step to get a second opinion on to help catch anything you might have overlooked.

Then I develop characters with the role in mind in the flavor of the universe I'm using. For example, in Cyberpunk Mafia, we had a Backup Cop that became Cop when the Cop dies. I took that role and developed flavor around it, creating answers to the questions of "who is he? Why is he not a cop now? What makes him cop material?" and setting up an interesting background that leaves the character at odds with the other characters on the opposite teams. This method helps you write better on the fly when the characters inevitably start tearing each other down; when you know the character and their personality, it's easier to write a scene around them.

Have you guys ever been successful in developing a game with characters already in mind and then creating roles for them?

Quote from EronTheRelentless

Have you guys ever been successful in developing a game with characters already in mind and then creating roles for them?

You can, but in my experience there's a tendency there for the tail to wag the dog. People want first and foremost a good game experience. There's nothing wrong with, say, wanting to do a particular game theme, or have particular characters, but you have to avoid overdoing it.

Quote from Xyre

You can, but in my experience there's a tendency there for the tail to wag the dog. People want first and foremost a good game experience. There's nothing wrong with, say, wanting to do a particular game theme, or have particular characters, but you have to avoid overdoing it.

I happen to agree with Xyre. Not even that, but I find it much easier to work on the gameplay of the game with 'generic' flavored roles then after all that is done, figure out a flavor that can be fit.

I'll add that if Xyre, king of flavor, is advocating design before flavor, it's worth sitting up and taking notice.

Quote from atlseal

I'll add that if Xyre, king of flavor, is advocating design before flavor, it's worth sitting up and taking notice.

I'm not sure it's as simple as that. There have been a number of good games designed around specific fiction series or similar things - AlphaInsidious' Joss Whedon Mafia, for instance - and those often need to be designed with roles to match the flavour. You just need to be careful to not get too caught up in flavour to think about things like balance and claims.

Here's an example: my Powerful Wizard Mafia. Mages of all types. Some were fit to roles - Harry Potter made a good doctor, since he protects others. Others had roles custom designed - the mason pair of Loren Silvercloak / Matt Soren, for instance. In their source material (Guy Gavriel Kay's Fionavar Tapestry) Loren is a mage, and Matt his source - any magic Loren does is powered by Matt. So in the game, Loren had an additional ability (investigator, which was also flavour-related) that would only work while Matt was still alive. That kind of role is never going to be designed mechanically.

I think it's easy to do so long as it's a limited percentage of the roles.

For me, I start building my games off of a concept, role, or flavor idea that I want to happen. Then I build it up from there. I think the only two games I've built from characters initially were Legend of Lucian and Pirates, and they turned out rather well, since the flavor was the premise of those games. I usually build it up in a text document, and I'll start with a faction first, and then edit it as necessary. Then I run it by a reviewer and work out the kinks, and BAM! Setup.

I think I have like 9 finished setups right now and several in the wings, waiting to be made.

It really depends on the person creating the game.

For me, I just go with whatever flow feels comfortable to me. I prefer to use a QT for creation purposes.

I've currently have 2 reviewed and ready to launch and have 4 more that I am creating.

Quote from atlseal

I happen to agree with Xyre. Not even that, but I find it much easier to work on the gameplay of the game with 'generic' flavored roles then after all that is done, figure out a flavor that can be fit.

I'll add that if Xyre, king of flavor, is advocating design before flavor, it's worth sitting up and taking notice.

I mean, it can be done. This is just speaking from personal experience though - in both TAM and OU, I got the impression people tuned out of the main story when it orbited around tangential elements.

That being said, the fact that I keep going back to that well points to why it has its benefits/is enjoyable from a writer's perspective. Lest I sound like I'm condemning the form.

As part of my process, I create a spreadsheet that incorporates role pointing to help with balance and get a snapshot of the setup. I use different tabs to track the finer details. This is helpful in the later stages of design, as it helps you find the wrinkles, and in keeping the game organized while you run it. Attached is an MS Excel spreadsheet of a particularly complicated specialty setup I ran.

I'm working on a game right now and I find a simple word doc is the easiest.

This is all great stuff. I've had ideas based on a couple of themes and I've been trying to work from characters to skeleton. I swapped it and it flowed pretty easy.

What's the consensus around what type of game to start with? I assume a basic is the way to go. Are there other opinions on that?

Quote from EronTheRelentless

This is all great stuff. I've had ideas based on a couple of themes and I've been trying to work from characters to skeleton. I swapped it and it flowed pretty easy.

What's the consensus around what type of game to start with? I assume a basic is the way to go. Are there other opinions on that?

Basic or a very low-tech mini.

The two things all mods need to do well are producing balanced setups and managing actions. Basics are good for this because the setups are hard to make unbalanced and there are few interactive roles (and fewer still with hidden information/triggered switches, which can screw up beginners - I had one early game I ran on MTGNews blow up because I forgot a megalomaniac (JOAT that secretly does nothing) was supposed to be inert).

I gotta start doing what Kraj did for Tales...

For the most part I just write down roles as I think of them for a game on a word document. It used to be jumbled up (as I am pretty sure Az can contest after reading GHS), but now I sort them after thinking of all of them by alignment and then balance the rest from their by handwritten notes.

Though my upcoming mini I had to use several word docs and excel spreadsheets (and some photoshop) to balance and come up with roles.

I know this is kinda noobish, but what exactly is crypto-claiming?

Can someone provide an example. Just something ive wondered....

I'm having trouble loading the game, but Harry Potter Mafia has crypto claiming in it.

Crypto-claiming is claiming in code. For example, claiming the first letter of every word in your role PM and the number of characters in it, as well. See Harry Potter Mafia for a clearer answer.

Quote from Iso

Crypto-claiming is claiming in code. For example, claiming the first letter of every word in your role PM and the number of characters in it, as well. See Harry Potter Mafia for a clearer answer.

So, lets say my role says "you are a 10 headed goat monkey" then saying something like "y3 a3 a1 10 h6 g4 m6" would be a crypto-claim. probably a horrible one of it is, but I have 213 pages to read for the info im looking for and want to see if I have a good concept of it.

HP Mafia is a great example of crypto-claiming, considering that it is the reason that crypto-claiming got banned.

I would believe that is an accurate representation of a crypto-claim, Macius.

Yep, it's one of the only tactics to ever be banned outright, because there's simply no way for the setup to balance against it or for the scum to tactically counter it. It basically forces all the scum to lock in their claims up front without outing any town roles in exchange - a mass claim that's all benefit and no cost to the town.

On some occasions you will get a townie or two who inadvertently reveal their roles by insufficiently obfuscating them in their acronyms, and maybe once in a dozen games you would get a scum brilliant enough to construct an acronym that can represent multiple roles and still sound legitimate. Other than that, it's basically foolproof.

Quote from Macius »

So, lets say my role says "you are a 10 headed goat monkey" then saying something like "y3 a3 a1 10 h6 g4 m6" would be a crypto-claim. probably a horrible one of it is, but I have 213 pages to read for the info im looking for and want to see if I have a good concept of it.

Giving the number of letters on a per word basis would generally make it too easy to decipher. If I was claiming cop, for instance, I might go for something like "So it turns out I possess the capacity to learn if people are on the side of justice or not once during each game night," which would encode to "SITOIPTCTLIPAOTSOJONODEGN - 95 characters."

I believe it was invented by Alx2 in View Askew Mafia.